(01:39:55 PM) sgothel: since we share similar goals, what can I do to welcome you even more ? :)
(01:40:29 PM) sgothel: yes, thats the thing - you need detailed API knowledge to impl. all this - hence, not feasible for one person
(01:40:35 PM) sgothel: so join us :)
(01:41:00 PM) Eclesia: sorry to say this, but license is not something I'm going to change. several peoples already send me code because it is made Public, I can't and won't go back on this
(01:41:24 PM) sgothel: so what is the diff between PD and 'BSD'ish' ?
(01:41:33 PM) sgothel: AFAIK, we can use your PD license
(01:41:45 PM) sgothel: why can't you use our BSD code ?
(01:41:59 PM) Eclesia: the copyright
(01:42:19 PM) sgothel: ? sorry .. me don't know the issue
(01:42:32 PM) Eclesia: do you know OpenSolaris ?
(01:42:39 PM) sgothel: yup
(01:43:11 PM) Eclesia: so basicly developers gave the code to opensolatis. copyright was hold by sun
(01:43:19 PM) sgothel: hehe
(01:43:22 PM) Eclesia: then Oracle buyed Sun.
(01:43:35 PM) sgothel: thats why we have chosen a (c) on an imaginary group ..
(01:43:38 PM) sgothel: not  person
(01:43:49 PM) sgothel: Copyright 2013 JogAmp Community. All rights reserved.
(01:44:05 PM) sgothel: yes .. we still have old code in .. w/ (c) Sun
(01:44:18 PM) sgothel: but what is the problem .. since it's BSD licensed ?
(01:44:51 PM) sgothel: License: We have (c) but you can copy and use as you please
(01:44:56 PM) sgothel: so whats the problem ?
(01:45:06 PM) Eclesia: perhaps, but who can tell if one day the jogamp projet slowly dies until the last developer given the right to some other company or foundation
(01:45:12 PM) Eclesia: we never know...
(01:45:47 PM) sgothel: you cannot restrict the license of already opened code
(01:46:07 PM) sgothel: only when you issue a branch w/ new license, you are able to - but prev. branch is still legal!
(01:46:22 PM) sgothel: thats an ole discussion .. but in general: once open - always open
(01:46:57 PM) sgothel: otherwise, nobody would ever use such code for [commercial] projects
(01:46:59 PM) Eclesia: another example, heard about the Oracle versus Google issue on API ?
(01:47:15 PM) Eclesia: oracle claim the API are not 'open'
(01:47:15 PM) sgothel: yes, but that has nothing to do w/ source license
(01:47:38 PM) sgothel: only for this particular case, not using the GPL'ed licensed API headers - yes!
(01:47:48 PM) sgothel: but ofc - they fail :)
(01:47:55 PM) Eclesia: a side question, what's that 'w/' you write everywhere ?
(01:48:00 PM) sgothel: with
(01:48:02 PM) sgothel: w/o without
(01:48:14 PM) sgothel: ofc of course
(01:48:22 PM) Eclesia: ok
(01:48:39 PM) Eclesia: thanks , I'll go to bed a bit less stupid
(01:48:54 PM) sgothel: good night - hope we stay in touch
(01:49:00 PM) Eclesia: lol non
(01:49:02 PM) Eclesia: no
(01:49:06 PM) Eclesia: just an expression
(01:49:47 PM) monsieur_max: ;)
(01:50:08 PM) Eclesia: monsieur_max: I guess this one doesn't exist in english ^^
(01:50:16 PM) monsieur_max: obviously
(01:50:35 PM) monsieur_max:  or in german
(01:50:44 PM) sgothel: English: A derived language from many :)
(01:50:53 PM) sgothel: .. w/ lots of losses on it's way ..
(01:51:23 PM) Eclesia: anyway, the most 'legal' document I use in my project is CC0
(01:51:39 PM) Eclesia: http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
(01:51:47 PM) sgothel: good link to read about this ? .. thx - same thought :)
(01:52:31 PM) sgothel: I agree w/ that :) .. 
(01:52:42 PM) Eclesia: sgothel: basicly it's the same as PD
(01:52:54 PM) sgothel: .. similar to BSD'ish as well.
(01:53:17 PM) Eclesia: without the copyright
(01:53:22 PM) sgothel: IMHO should be no problem including such work, maybe to a new JogAmp higher level module
(01:53:54 PM) sgothel: (yeah .. (c) .. quite a joke w/ the additional statements - AFAIK it was for legal purposes, me no a lawyer)
(01:55:25 PM) sgothel: No trademark or patent rights held by Affirmer are           waived, abandoned, surrendered, licensed or otherwise           affected by this document. -> thats where Apache 2 shines AFAIK, however - we could not do that for example, since we simply do not know (what is patented .. etc).
(01:57:10 PM) Eclesia: so question is now : how can we organize our projects.
(01:57:24 PM) Eclesia: isolate the APIs come first
(01:57:32 PM) Eclesia: merge them
(01:57:59 PM) Eclesia: on side I need to be able to work on headless systems
(01:58:09 PM) sgothel: i.e. create a new module, e.g. jogl-graphui .. 
(01:58:28 PM) sgothel: core features are in JOGL .. 
(01:58:36 PM) sgothel: headless - ofc
(01:58:42 PM) Eclesia: ofc ?
(01:58:51 PM) sgothel: of course
(01:59:07 PM) Eclesia: sorry ^^ I already forget
(01:59:17 PM) sgothel: our main target is mobile as well!
(01:59:42 PM) sgothel: well, we have to chat about the license thing w/ all folks involved thought
(01:59:46 PM) sgothel: *though
(02:00:02 PM) sgothel: I don't care really - as long it is respected across board and sort of compatible
(02:00:26 PM) sgothel: e.g. in JOGL we simply incl. Apache2 license as well, and list it in our LICENSE.txt
(02:00:40 PM) sgothel: we are pretty thorough in this regard
(02:00:44 PM) Eclesia: I have somekind of different targets too.
(02:00:59 PM) Eclesia: you know I expect to move completly out of the jvm ecosystem right ?
(02:01:13 PM) sgothel: so we would - if you insist - simply add a section w/ your CC0 license, done
(02:01:19 PM) sgothel: oh ..
(02:01:39 PM) sgothel: well, IMHO that is expensive - i.e. removing CPU hardware abstraction the JVM provides
(02:01:48 PM) Eclesia: The thing is I also have special systems. Sensors and relay stations
(02:01:54 PM) sgothel: i.e. our whole story is about abstraction ..
(02:01:59 PM) Eclesia: which don't even have gl stuffs
(02:02:01 PM) sgothel: shorting developer lifecycle .. etc
(02:02:11 PM) sgothel: nice
(02:02:26 PM) sgothel: you can use GlueGen to add your native driver API 
(02:02:54 PM) Eclesia: they don't gpu :D
(02:02:57 PM) sgothel: we use that to auto-generate OpenAL, GL, .. 
(02:03:00 PM) Eclesia: only a small cpu
(02:03:02 PM) sgothel: whatever ..
(02:03:19 PM) sgothel: GlueGen is 2 things: 1 compiler .. (c -> java)
(02:03:25 PM) sgothel: 2 common utils for runtime
(02:05:38 PM) sgothel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FSF-approved_software_licenses <- CC0 not listed here 
(02:06:15 PM) Eclesia: sgothel: http://opensource.org/faq#cc-zero
(02:06:50 PM) Eclesia: there have been plenty of attempt to make something like public domain reconized by the OSI.
(02:07:05 PM) sgothel: now I remember .. while reading text a bit ..
(02:07:28 PM) sgothel: it was about, that you simply cannot disregard (c) holder, since it's a law thing
(02:07:45 PM) sgothel: so even if you say, not holding, you hold it .. so you have to deal w/ it
(02:07:56 PM) sgothel: like .. you cannot say this is not my income .. :)
(02:08:46 PM) Eclesia: I don't care ^^ they will have to accept it.
(02:09:15 PM) sgothel: the problem for users is can you trust a claim and will it hold water on court ? that what such a license is for.
(02:09:42 PM) sgothel: so here, the statement 'no (c)' and 'I waver the (c)' may simply be invalid
(02:09:50 PM) sgothel: since you cannot do that .. by law
(02:10:10 PM) sgothel: like .. good intentions, but dude changed his mind, and he can
(02:10:54 PM) sgothel: hence folks like to choose a license, which is: SHORT, sort of accepted and in use
(02:11:01 PM) Eclesia: author rights, same problems here in france, can't deny this one even if you say so
(02:11:13 PM) sgothel: yup
(02:11:20 PM) sgothel: same here in Germany etc
(02:12:04 PM) sgothel: hence it seems more reliable to have a license accepting the 'duty of (c)' and then grant certain rights
(02:12:08 PM) Eclesia: that makes me think I'll pass a petition when I will make the project presentation at the JUG
(02:12:26 PM) Eclesia: we will see what developers think about this public domain stuff ^^
(02:12:58 PM) sgothel: see, I don't like to deal w/ such issues .. just need to touch it if required - so do many other folks.
(02:13:10 PM) sgothel: we like to provide 4 freedoms of software - done
(02:13:30 PM) sgothel: then we usually choose a license w/o hassle, i.e. a known proven one
(02:14:02 PM) sgothel: why making such a headache .. when you simply can have same fruits ?
(02:14:37 PM) sgothel: Thats why we chose the 'not a person' (c) name - and have the git log, tracking authorship
(02:15:05 PM) sgothel: I have discussed this w/ one lawyer (Eclipse) .. and one license dude from Siemens .. besides similar issues.
(02:15:26 PM) sgothel: most important to them ... know who did what under which license claim
(02:16:16 PM) sgothel: [I] should file a petition to not support covert wars w/ our tax money .. hmm 
(02:16:42 PM) Eclesia: hehe
(02:17:15 PM) monsieur_max: haha :)
(02:19:26 PM) Eclesia: well, if we can't find a common document for sharing code, i guess that's it ...
(02:19:51 PM) sgothel: Again: If nobody objects .. 
(02:20:02 PM) sgothel: Maybe you can also dual license it :)
(02:20:23 PM) sgothel: then your intention is covered by CC0 .. and the other legal stuff covered
(02:20:25 PM) Eclesia: dual license a license which says it's not a license ^^
(02:20:44 PM) sgothel: there is no 'no license' in the land of the lawyers
(02:21:13 PM) sgothel: and that is the point .. license is a contract and written for the case shit hits the fan
(02:21:16 PM) Eclesia: narrow minded peoples. they have a problem with public domain, not us
(02:21:39 PM) sgothel: you must understand, since you want to use it commercially .. no ? i.e. legal coverage ?
(02:22:02 PM) sgothel: I personally understand all this - me not want to deal w/ this crap either - but then there is this other world .. :(
(02:22:05 PM) Eclesia: I might use it, but it's not my objective
(02:22:19 PM) sgothel: same here Sir .. same here 
(02:23:17 PM) Eclesia: it's nothing new I am writing, there are tenth of other implementation, no creation at all, just knowledge written
(02:23:31 PM) sgothel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_What_The_Fuck_You_Want_To_Public_License :)
(02:23:52 PM) Eclesia: http://blitiri.com.ar/p/bola/
(02:24:59 PM) Eclesia: lawyer can't go againts PD. they deny it so far that's all.
(02:25:45 PM) Eclesia: it scares them and the big companies, if everything is rewritten in public domain, they will go backrupt :D
(02:26:02 PM) sgothel: then again, I see no objectives or counter argument against New Modified BSD, Apache2, since you agreed to the fact that authorship/copyright is not deniable
(02:26:47 PM) sgothel: well .. whatever, IMHO my time better spend on other issues than those lawyers .. .. one quote ..
(02:27:06 PM) sgothel: If you fight a pig you'll discover two things:
(02:27:06 PM) sgothel: You've got covered in mud.
(02:27:06 PM) sgothel: The pig is enjoying it.
(02:28:15 PM) Eclesia: nice but I prefer this one from picasso : "I am always doing things I can't do, that's how I get to do them"
(02:28:18 PM) sgothel: Under this premises .. our New BSD'ish choice was more like: Howling w/ the wolves 
(02:29:26 PM) sgothel: Nice challenge :) .. but I prefer my time spend on what makes fun: the software itself, in a most accepted free way
(02:29:53 PM) sgothel: Again: I will not object - lets discuss it when others are avail :)
(02:30:12 PM) Eclesia: ok, I'll stay connected then
(02:30:20 PM) sgothel: sweet
(02:30:33 PM) ***Eclesia going back to the WTabContainer widget
(02:32:29 PM) sgothel: Just for later discussion (for the record): http://opensource.org/minutes20090304 : Title: WTFPL Submission:  http://crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?17:mss:634:200902:aglgcgbhmfcheffmdgon  License: http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/ Comments: It's no different from  dedication to the public domain. Author has submitted license approval  request -- author is free to make public domain dedication. Although he  agrees with the recommendation, Mr. Michlmayr notes that public domain  doesn't exist in Europe. Recommend: Reject
(02:35:14 PM) Eclesia: another good reference : http://unlicense.org/ with plenty of links