#jogamp @ irc.freenode.net - 20130614 05:05:17 (UTC)

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20130614 07:03:03 * monsieur_max (~maxime@anon) has joined #jogamp
20130614 07:17:17 <monsieur_max> hello
20130614 08:54:30 * [Mike] (~Mike]@anon) Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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20130614 16:23:24 <monsieur_max> Javapocalypse :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3418SeWZfQ&hd=1
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20130614 23:08:21 <sgothel> :)
20130614 23:23:50 <[Mike]> A very amusing short.
20130614 23:24:35 <sgothel> Yes .. thx. I looked at the price tag for the conference .. and ~780EUR per ticket .. is a bit .. HUGE imho :)
20130614 23:24:56 <sgothel> .. for a non profit organization w/ big sponsors .. interesting
20130614 23:25:53 <sgothel> Dunno if Xerxes likes to ask that we speak there .. at least it's around his 'hood :)
20130614 23:28:52 <[Mike]> Wow that is pretty expensive. How does that compare to SIGGRAPH?
20130614 23:30:01 <sgothel> .. I though SIGGRAPH is expensive :) .. http://s2013.siggraph.org/attendees/registration
20130614 23:30:42 <sgothel> we use 'select conference' 295-350 (early bird) USD
20130614 23:31:26 <sgothel> 262.241 EUR == 350 USD
20130614 23:31:34 <sgothel> 1/3 :)
20130614 23:32:00 <sgothel> plus .. it's cheaper around Anaheim then Oslo .. for sure :)
20130614 23:32:38 <[Mike]> I'll take your word for it :). Don't even know what Oslo is like.
20130614 23:33:04 <sgothel> Norwegian .. AFAIK most wealthy / expensive EU country :)
20130614 23:35:55 <sgothel> http://thebillfold.com/2012/07/oslo-v-portland-a-hilarious-comparison-in-cost-of-living/ :)
20130614 23:36:52 <sgothel> ofc .. they won't make such a fuss about all the terrorism bullshit (hi NSA) :)
20130614 23:37:39 <[Mike]> haha
20130614 23:39:01 <[Mike]> Well its interesting an comparison.
20130614 23:39:47 * odin_ (~Odin@anon) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
20130614 23:44:52 <[Mike]> Looks like I really don't know anything about norway...
20130614 23:46:20 <[Mike]> or sweden, or denmark lol
20130614 23:52:40 <[Mike]> Thanks for the procrastination booster :) Have to stop reading and get back to programming :(
20130614 23:53:04 <sgothel> ay :) what are you working on ? anything to share ?
20130614 23:53:41 <sgothel> (sorry if I should already know, sometimes I don't remember those random discussions ..)
20130614 23:54:14 <sgothel> Have I already asked you whether you like to show something on our BOF @ SIGGRAPH ? :)
20130614 23:55:47 <[Mike]> I don't think so... That question would most likely have to be posed to the project lead.
20130614 23:56:37 <sgothel> .. so what is it ? me always curious, sorry. sure .. ignore my request if I must be killed to know :)
20130614 23:57:11 <[Mike]> The main project I'm working on is basically a video player (now using ardor3d/jogl) using gstreamer-java.
20130614 23:57:14 <sgothel> (actually sort of important to get a good sense for use cases, needs etc .. if jogamp related)
20130614 23:57:28 <sgothel> right .. I remember some discussion
20130614 23:57:48 <sgothel> fixing our ffmpeg backend for GLMediaPlayer is on the TODO list .. well :)
20130614 23:58:07 <sgothel> you 'only' need unix targets ?
20130614 23:58:26 <[Mike]> We are targetting windows and *nix currently
20130614 23:58:37 <sgothel> I guess I already asked you whether you could be interested in participating .. hmm
20130614 23:58:55 <sgothel> what do you use on windows as a backend .. ? gstreamer as well ?
20130614 23:59:10 <sgothel> which codec .. and how do you deploy the native codec library ?
20130614 23:59:14 <[Mike]> I wanted to start up some development on the side (devoting saturdays/sundays). Haven't had much time as I been devoting extra hours to this project.
20130614 23:59:18 <sgothel> (license, patents .. bla )
20130614 23:59:29 <[Mike]> We are using gstreamer
20130614 23:59:36 <[Mike]> I cross-compiled from source
20130614 23:59:42 <sgothel> .. and you deploy it ?
20130614 23:59:55 <[Mike]> Thats the tricky part...
20130615 00:00:09 <sgothel> we also like to deploy ffmpeg/libav .. but we are not so sure about the legal impact .. you know, it's a bitch :(
20130615 00:00:27 <sgothel> not so here in Europe .. but for the unfree friends in the US ..
20130615 00:01:01 <sgothel> a magic runtime download click ? :)
20130615 00:01:34 <sgothel> I was thinking .. maybe let the user decide ..
20130615 00:01:52 <sgothel> or compile just webm in .. or whatever we 'feel' is a save codec .. well, dunno
20130615 00:02:04 <[Mike]> Right, its something that hasn't been entirely considered yet as the project hasn't formally released a version.
20130615 00:02:27 <sgothel> progress: JOAL uses openal-soft now, so it can be safely used as the audio backend
20130615 00:02:40 <sgothel> will combine this w/ our ffmpeg backend
20130615 00:02:46 <[Mike]> So there are legality issues with deploying ffmpeg?
20130615 00:03:10 <sgothel> not libav/ffmpeg itself .. or gstreamer - BUT THE CODECS (-> PATENTS)
20130615 00:03:18 <[Mike]> Right right
20130615 00:03:27 <[Mike]> libx264?
20130615 00:03:34 <sgothel> MP4 patents
20130615 00:03:59 <sgothel> MPEGLA even tried to sable rattling against webm .. and Nokia .. duh!
20130615 00:04:27 <sgothel> so .. it's sort of unclear, but maybe just webm / matroska would be 'safe'ish
20130615 00:04:53 <[Mike]> right
20130615 00:12:39 <[Mike]> What are the advantages to JOGL deploying with codecs?
20130615 00:12:57 <sgothel> like JOAL - it will simply just work ..
20130615 00:13:31 <sgothel> i.e. fallback w/ provided 'source decoder', may utilize hw-accel if provided w/ diff. backend, i.e. DirectX or whatever backend
20130615 00:14:11 <sgothel> right now, I need to install libav on Windows .. manually to see the movie .. so thats a NOGO
20130615 00:14:22 <sgothel> plus .. the version hell .. especially libav
20130615 00:14:43 <sgothel> google chrome [and firefox I guess] include an own version of libav
20130615 00:15:21 <sgothel> they have big lawyers .. our users ? I dunno .. maybe we should risk one format, i.e. webm .. will see
20130615 00:16:27 <[Mike]> hmm... The JavaFX video player has support for some proprietary codecs. Any way to grab those libs? I know they also use gstreamer for some things.
20130615 00:17:03 <sgothel> we like to run on a minimal java'ish system .. w/o requirements like AWT, javax.sound etc
20130615 00:17:20 <sgothel> this shall ensure our capability of a free choice xVM :)
20130615 00:17:56 <sgothel> especially if those requirements / dependencies are not free!
20130615 00:18:02 <[Mike]> true
20130615 00:18:41 <sgothel> thx to this separation we can run on Dalvik .. etc
20130615 00:19:00 <sgothel> thats why I added the JPEG decoder for example .. etc
20130615 00:19:29 <[Mike]> I see. Now I understand the direction! :)
20130615 00:20:35 <sgothel> i.e. our Rasp.Pi. capability may show other 'serious' embedded system makers .. that it's possible :)
20130615 00:21:15 <sgothel> we did that earlier .. around 2008/9 .. under another umbrella .. for video devices
20130615 00:24:29 <[Mike]> Well thats cool. Do you have an overall direction for Jogamp?
20130615 00:25:19 <sgothel> it simply should work .. core/NEWT .. and w/ other toolkits (AWT/Swing)
20130615 00:25:25 <sgothel> w/ all GL profiles ofc
20130615 00:25:53 <sgothel> then our graph and video stuff .. might get updated .. sort of external utils
20130615 00:27:18 <sgothel> would like to work on our graph system more, so we can provide a simple nosql like graph w/ our curve renderer and stuff, to have UI and more, incl. culling and diff. organization principals
20130615 00:27:31 <sgothel> then .. we need to boost JOCL support
20130615 00:27:51 <sgothel> so .. core: bare-metal layer (JOAL, JOGL, JOCL)
20130615 00:28:11 <sgothel> and util layer on top of 'em (video, [scene-]graph, UI, ..)
20130615 00:28:28 <sgothel> physics would be nice w/ JOCL ofc
20130615 00:28:43 <sgothel> yes - this would require more cooperation
20130615 00:29:23 <sgothel> IMHO the evolutionary growth of features, forces to extract them to their own modules at one time (video, graph)
20130615 00:29:27 <[Mike]> I see. Do you think there should be some separation from the util layer? Like the GLMediaPlayer being outside of JOGL
20130615 00:29:27 <sgothel> to keep it simple
20130615 00:29:36 <sgothel> yes
20130615 00:29:50 <sgothel> -> evolution of stuff ..
20130615 00:29:54 <[Mike]> Right :)
20130615 00:30:08 <sgothel> i.e. when it's so simple .. just a few classes, we are too lazy :)
20130615 00:30:18 <sgothel> but then later on, we may promote it to it's own thing
20130615 00:30:29 <sgothel> the latter ofc needs sweat & work .. the usual
20130615 00:31:05 <sgothel> i.e. we decided to be quick & dirty and add JOAL dependency to the video part of JOGL - for now!
20130615 00:31:13 <sgothel> but later - we have to separate it
20130615 00:31:34 <sgothel> but JOAL dependency is better than javax.sound :)
20130615 00:33:04 <[Mike]> Definitely
20130615 00:33:38 <sgothel> @world-politics-jogamp-unreleated: http://www.worldtribune.com/2013/05/31/nato-data-assad-winning-the-war-for-syrians-hearts-and-minds/ "The data, relayed to NATO over the last month, asserted that 70 percent of Syrians support the Assad regime. Another 20 percent were deemed neutral and the remaining 10 percent expressed support for the rebels. ... The people are sick of the war and hate the jihadists more than Assad,”a Western source f
20130615 00:34:00 <[Mike]> So if I were to devote some time to jogamp related work, anything you would like? Bug combing?
20130615 00:34:21 <sgothel> any bug fix work is appreciated ofc
20130615 00:34:33 <sgothel> coop on media play .. graph ..
20130615 00:34:49 <sgothel> graph/UI: Our own 'sexy' 3d UI
20130615 00:34:55 <sgothel> (lots of work)
20130615 00:35:12 <sgothel> you saw the 'old' UI demo applet ?
20130615 00:35:32 <sgothel> Mark has a great repo of scenegraph processing stuff
20130615 00:36:06 <sgothel> Mark -> io7m.com http://fossil.io7m.com/repo.cgi/io7m-jspatial/index .. for example
20130615 00:36:07 <[Mike]> Is the 'old' UI demo applet the one with a column of buttons on the left hand side?
20130615 00:36:16 <sgothel> yup
20130615 00:36:30 <sgothel> all rendered w/ that GPU curver renderer using Rami's method
20130615 00:37:01 <sgothel> all in junit space right now :)
20130615 00:37:19 <[Mike]> I see
20130615 00:37:34 <sgothel> using typecast for TTF parsing
20130615 00:37:52 <sgothel> that is incl. in JOGL plus the curve renderer (graph package)
20130615 00:37:57 <sgothel> the UI stuff -> test
20130615 00:38:18 <sgothel> have to extract the ubuntu fonts from jogl-all.jar .. too big :)
20130615 00:43:01 <sgothel> @world-politics: http://vimeo.com/68229603 Drone Down in Taksim square, Istanbul. - Used to document police violence? Looks like citizen can also employ drones for their rights :)
20130615 00:43:34 <[Mike]> Well I think you gave me a good amount of detail to start doing some more research. I know you mention the scene/graph stuff but didn't really know where to look. Now I do :)
20130615 00:43:48 <sgothel> great
20130615 00:44:18 <sgothel> I have one graph cleanup on my stash for a year now .. no time, hope I can push it next week
20130615 00:45:05 <sgothel> all this .. b/c highest focus is on our core modules functionality ofc .. so it suits all
20130615 00:46:55 * hharrison (~chatzilla@anon) has joined #jogamp
20130615 00:47:03 <sgothel> Hi Harvey
20130615 00:48:06 * odin_ (~Odin@anon) has joined #jogamp
20130615 00:48:33 <hharrison> hello
20130615 00:49:33 <hharrison> Trying to get the OK from people on just what I can show/not show for siggraph/the forum
20130615 00:49:58 <sgothel> pressing thumbs
20130615 00:50:03 <hharrison> people...meaning lawyers :-(
20130615 00:50:21 <sgothel> they are people .. after all :)
20130615 00:50:58 <hharrison> True, just painful
20130615 00:51:09 <sgothel> you mean data & material ?
20130615 00:51:19 <hharrison> Just on the data side
20130615 00:51:33 <sgothel> yeah .. CCT has same problems .. horrible
20130615 00:51:35 <hharrison> I have some stuff from google 3d warehouse that looks alright
20130615 00:51:48 <sgothel> especially .. when you think .. it's also advertisement :)
20130615 00:51:52 <hharrison> But I'd rather use some of the engineering content if at all possible
20130615 00:52:01 <sgothel> yup
20130615 00:52:31 <hharrison> Turns out jogl and our use has made for a pretty efficient little rendering system
20130615 00:52:45 <sgothel> KUDOS
20130615 00:53:08 <sgothel> have you used UBO ? uniform buffer objects .. i.e. to map c-structs .. see forum post
20130615 00:53:20 <hharrison> A quadro 600 can hit 40-50 FPS on full engineering design...somewhere near 5-6 million triangles
20130615 00:53:31 <sgothel> hoho
20130615 00:53:37 <hharrison> and the quadro is by no means that great a card
20130615 00:53:45 <sgothel> what do you use for culling ? octtree ?
20130615 00:54:03 <hharrison> view frustrum + convex hull bounds
20130615 00:54:17 <sgothel> oh .. could you test our PMVMatrix frustum extraction ?
20130615 00:54:35 <sgothel> we would still need a unit test for that one :)
20130615 00:54:36 <hharrison> I can extract the tests we have for ours and convert them
20130615 00:54:42 <sgothel> awesome!
20130615 00:55:04 <hharrison> I'll talk to Matt on Tuesday....he's really pretty gifted at this 3d stuff
20130615 00:55:35 <sgothel> *bending head down* .. very good - always need more 3d/math expertise
20130615 00:55:50 <hharrison> I don't really do that much, just make data-structure/threading suggestions, he's the mad scientist behind our 3d
20130615 00:56:11 <hharrison> I understand the math, he understands opengl and the hardware
20130615 00:56:20 <sgothel> yeah, I can read a paper, and implement .. but well, I have my limits :)
20130615 00:56:31 <sgothel> great .. yup, it's all teamwork
20130615 00:57:06 <hharrison> Doesn't look like he'll make siggraph, so I'll do my best to answer questions, but people will have to excuse my ignorance in places
20130615 00:57:31 <hharrison> BUT...it's all opensource, so people can just git clone if they really want to know!
20130615 00:57:32 <sgothel> sometimes we have to force folks to ask questions .. they are shy :)
20130615 00:57:37 <sgothel> yeah right :)
20130615 00:57:48 <sgothel> .. some do ..
20130615 00:58:12 <hharrison> We're at commit 799 in our opensource repo...was sooo tempted to just make one extra commit today
20130615 00:58:16 <sgothel> just checked our download log .. 2011/12 rami's docs were downloaded like ~3000 times .. not bad
20130615 00:58:43 <sgothel> hehe .. README + 800th commits :)
20130615 01:00:00 <sgothel> 800th .. pah .. we had our 1000th JOGL build :)
20130615 01:00:22 <hharrison> We've only been in the open for a year, I think we're doing pretty well ;-)
20130615 01:00:41 <sgothel> just kidding - yes ofc
20130615 01:00:53 <sgothel> t-shirt idea ?
20130615 01:01:06 <sgothel> milestones on back .. ok-ish .. ?
20130615 01:01:24 <hharrison> I like the selected milestones idea
20130615 01:01:27 <sgothel> I hope we get response from Dominik (artist) soon .. hmm, have to call him tomorrow
20130615 01:02:33 <sgothel> you know good deals in Vancouver for t-shirt prints ?
20130615 01:02:38 <hharrison> Got a nibble about packaging java3d for fedora, not sure what jogl2's fedora situation is, are you in contact with anyone?
20130615 01:02:41 <sgothel> our coffe-press is a bit .. expensive
20130615 01:03:06 <sgothel> fedora ? there is one bug report - but no contact
20130615 01:03:09 <hharrison> I can do a look around for shirts, got a number in mind?
20130615 01:03:27 <hharrison> Number of shirts, that is
20130615 01:03:46 <sgothel> puhh .. front+back .. cotton 100% ofc, good hi-qual print - maybe .. 100 ?
20130615 01:04:02 <sgothel> 3 colors at least
20130615 01:04:14 <hharrison> Sure, I'll call arund and see what the going rate around here is
20130615 01:04:20 <sgothel> 100-200 .. I would say, we give 'em away for free :)
20130615 01:04:41 <sgothel> thx .. let me check what coffepress charged, I know Canada is less expensive :)
20130615 01:08:18 <sgothel> 16 EUR Color: White Size: X-Large
20130615 01:08:32 <sgothel> so .. quite .. expensive :)
20130615 01:08:36 <hharrison> What's the state of jogl2 in debian these days?
20130615 01:09:16 <sgothel> puhh .. Sylvestre takes care of it .. he uses patches to rename our jar files so they don't collide w/ JOGL1 .. policies in debian
20130615 01:09:38 <sgothel> usually a maintainer of that distri should do such job ..
20130615 01:09:58 <sgothel> he asked us whether we are ok w/ renaming jar files .. and then I was scared :)
20130615 01:10:13 <sgothel> me default response is: no
20130615 01:10:37 <sgothel> maybe they can do subfolder w/ a version number .. would need to discuss it
20130615 01:10:40 <hharrison> Have to wonder what is left in debian using jogl1.1
20130615 01:10:56 <hharrison> Maybe they can drop it eventually and just move on
20130615 01:10:58 <sgothel> yup .. by this year probably none
20130615 01:11:14 <sgothel> we would need to discuss this w/ Sylvestre and Debian folks ..
20130615 01:13:08 <hharrison> When it comes to the distros, I don't know if I'd worry too much about the renaming
20130615 01:13:39 <hharrison> As their classpath, etc is pretty static, and if they at least get it working once, it should keep working
20130615 01:15:06 <hharrison> Having jogl2 apt-get able would be pretty awesome
20130615 01:16:46 <hharrison> But I have purely selfish reasons for saying that, if jogl2 isn't in the repos, I can't get java3d in the repos either :-)
20130615 01:16:49 <sgothel> that exists .. actually .. in testing
20130615 01:17:08 <sgothel> Sylvestre may include it .. hmm
20130615 01:17:18 <sgothel> ofc he added it for SciLab ..
20130615 01:18:14 <sgothel> since we have 'our' means of deployment (java / maven / .. way) .. well ..
20130615 01:18:28 <sgothel> but a good outcome was the extended range of platforms
20130615 01:19:28 <hharrison> Need to step away for a bit and walk the dog
20130615 02:59:43 * [Mike] (~Mike]@anon) Quit ()
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