JogAmp IRC Chat Logs

#jogamp @ irc.freenode.net - 20130805 05:06:06 (UTC)

20130805 05:06:06 -jogamp- Previous @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20130804050605.html
20130805 05:06:06 -jogamp- This channel is logged @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20130805050606.html
20130805 10:20:20 * gouessej (546051e4@anon) has joined #jogamp
20130805 10:20:27 <gouessej> Hi
20130805 10:20:48 <sgothel> Good morning Julien, Xerxes and all !
20130805 10:21:13 <gouessej> I looked at the bug report about JRT...
20130805 10:21:30 <gouessej> it seems interesting
20130805 10:22:17 <sgothel> thx .. yup, it's like .. we had enough .. so I will work on JWeb stuff .. and we need some substantial work in this regard .. and probably funding
20130805 10:22:44 <gouessej> Android will be a bit tricky to support
20130805 10:22:55 <gouessej> less tricky than iOS
20130805 10:23:08 <sgothel> JME / phoneme .. is sort of out of the question due to 'too old' VM impl.
20130805 10:23:41 <sgothel> you can see that we ignore all 'interfacing' stuff 1st .. hence it should be quite easy for all platforms
20130805 10:23:50 <sgothel> 'interfacing' means: graphics, input etc ..
20130805 10:24:07 <gouessej> I think it is not interesting as a whole but maybe we could learn from Davy's experience
20130805 10:24:27 <sgothel> yes, networking is included .. but it should work with that libc-thingy they use
20130805 10:25:21 <sgothel> the 'we' .. is where funding and volunteers kicks in .. since 'we', especially 'I' would have no time to do it myself.
20130805 10:26:00 <sgothel> hence yesterday we started brainstorming pushing some arbitrary amount .. then Xerxes has an idea how we could top that w/ some organization ..
20130805 10:26:17 <sgothel> (foundation, institute .. or even EU program)
20130805 10:26:26 <gouessej> Isn't there already pre-packaged headless OpenJDK builds available for Debian?
20130805 10:26:42 <sgothel> there is something everywhere .. yes
20130805 10:26:54 <sgothel> that one uses a dummy AWT impl. AFAIK, Xerxes told me so ..
20130805 10:27:11 <sgothel> idea is to use official repos .. and patch it automatically ..
20130805 10:27:55 <sgothel> so strip off the redundant stuff .. and build it .. all automatic - 1st stage goal ..
20130805 10:28:44 <gouessej> Do you have a precise idea of which organizations may fund such projects?
20130805 10:28:50 <sgothel> after we reached some working proof of concept, hopefully more will join
20130805 10:30:08 <sgothel> Well, we, Gothel Software e.K., will do a bit (5-10k EUR) - and we have to see how things work out w/ others. If using Xerxes idea, we may need that money to get doubled by a funding organization.
20130805 10:30:45 <sgothel> My part will be the AWT-less plugin .. (JWeb)
20130805 10:31:04 <sgothel> [on top of the funding ofc]
20130805 10:31:05 <gouessej> yes it would be appealing
20130805 10:32:27 <sgothel> the result should of course follow proper automation, i.e. pull from official repo, patch, build and bundle
20130805 10:32:29 <gouessej> Java has almost no chance to survive on the client side without a great initiative to drive it more cross-platform, more open and more efficient at least on the desktop
20130805 10:32:36 <sgothel> so we can add this to our jenkins server
20130805 10:32:49 <sgothel> plus some proof of concept unit tests .. if possible
20130805 10:33:28 <sgothel> Ji Gong is seen as the kind motivator, PIA of some companies .. tech. enabler :)
20130805 10:33:45 <sgothel> IcedTea .. once was that type of thing ..
20130805 10:34:10 <sgothel> .. may still is .. but we need to push things somewhat, since nobody did yet .. see the horse/chair analogy :)
20130805 10:34:29 <gouessej> but some people including me need a library able to compete with Swing and JavaFX
20130805 10:34:44 <sgothel> that is right .. we need UI
20130805 10:34:58 <sgothel> we have talked UI .. and it is now definitely on the table
20130805 10:35:10 <gouessej> I have discovered tons of disappointing things in JavaFX
20130805 10:35:29 <sgothel> at least a simple 2d SVG based AWT replacement - later an awesome 3d something, maybe w/ blender ..
20130805 10:35:36 <sgothel> JavaFX is dead ..
20130805 10:36:16 <gouessej> 2D SVG, yes, I thought about it too
20130805 10:36:27 <sgothel> I will add the bugs/project to bugzilla today .. (UI stuff) - goal is to be ready in around .. 6 month
20130805 10:36:57 <sgothel> Rami said that the TTF format is 'almost' SVG .. if true .. we may be able to do something here
20130805 10:37:01 <gouessej> it's a bit short if you want to support all typical components, isn't it?
20130805 10:37:32 <sgothel> well, at least basic idea: svg [geometry, some semantics via comments], graph renderer and event handling
20130805 10:37:43 <sgothel> then we have to see ..
20130805 10:38:09 <sgothel> the AWT replacement set .. should use this programmable framework
20130805 10:38:31 <sgothel> later .. we can check for better CAD 3d data formats (than SVG)
20130805 10:38:40 <sgothel> but baby steps .. otherwise we are overwhelmed
20130805 10:38:46 <gouessej> yes
20130805 10:39:27 <gouessej> you can still use SVG in 3D, maybe convert SVG to Collada
20130805 10:39:36 <sgothel> One researcher at MIT was very interested .. plus C3D likes to use it one day .. plus .. we want to offer it for a proper separation of things (JRT / Graphics)
20130805 10:39:55 <sgothel> Collada is tesselated .. they told me (triangles)
20130805 10:40:18 <sgothel> while we may like to support tris and textures / the basic functions are curves rendered via graph
20130805 10:40:24 <gouessej> anyway it is possible to load SVG files and build VBOs from them
20130805 10:40:47 <sgothel> you mean, collada tools can load curves and tesselate them ?
20130805 10:41:05 <sgothel> benefit of using curves w/ graph is the resolution independence ofc
20130805 10:42:19 <gouessej> the problem is that in all my jobs, some customers use old GDI drivers compatible with OpenGL 1.1 or OpenGL 1.4 whereas the graph and curve API requires shaders
20130805 10:43:02 <sgothel> I see .. well, we have to focus on some technology - hence we sort of target ES2 as the common denominator
20130805 10:43:38 <sgothel> i.e. drop FFP - maybe software rasterizer can be used in those cases you mention
20130805 10:43:40 <gouessej> If I don't find a "smarter" solution, I'll do so
20130805 10:44:31 <gouessej> PureSwing isn't maintained anymore but I think it would be interesting to study
20130805 10:44:40 <gouessej> it's shader based
20130805 10:46:34 <gouessej> There are several sources of inspiration for hardware accelerated UIs, TWL, LibGDX Scene2D
20130805 10:46:42 <gouessej> NiftyGUI
20130805 10:47:18 <sgothel> We will ofc look at NiftyGUI and try to re-use great ideas and stuff .. maybe even utilize it directly.
20130805 10:47:45 <sgothel> However, we like to be based on curves/graph to be resolution independent etc.
20130805 10:48:34 <sgothel> So the description (SVG, Blender, Maya, ..) -> Graph-Outline[s] -> Graph-Renderer
20130805 10:48:52 <gouessej> ok I see what you mean
20130805 10:48:54 <sgothel> while maintaining some semantics like: object names, object events, etc
20130805 10:49:10 <sgothel> i.e. in Blender/Maya you could describe animations etc
20130805 10:49:42 <sgothel> We got told .. the new Maya importer is BSD licensed in OpenJDK .. so we could rip that one off ..
20130805 10:50:03 <sgothel> However, Maya is proprietary .. hence Blender would be more desired by nature
20130805 10:50:04 <gouessej> :)
20130805 10:50:21 <gouessej> yes but its format evolves...
20130805 10:50:28 <gouessej> a standard would be fine
20130805 10:50:35 <gouessej> That's why I think about Collada
20130805 10:50:43 <sgothel> sure .. such a project would need one dedicated dude ..
20130805 10:50:58 <sgothel> should need one common 3d base format .. supporting curves
20130805 10:51:05 <sgothel> read: CAD data
20130805 10:51:30 <gouessej> Collada 1.4 supports curve
20130805 10:52:10 <sgothel> oh .. interesting, yes, Johnny (old colleague) thinks Collada would be best as well in the long run, w/o chatting about details.
20130805 10:52:32 <sgothel> he did a Collada session at SIGGRAPH
20130805 10:52:36 <gouessej> yes because other formats may quickly move, it already happened with Blender :s
20130805 10:52:55 <gouessej> maintaining Python scripts for Blender is not trivial
20130805 10:53:09 <gouessej> Editor formats are good for ... editors
20130805 10:53:19 <sgothel> Blender, I guess it was Harvey/Xerxes, told me that you would write a visitor to catch all the graph details .. hmm
20130805 10:53:34 <sgothel> Blender -> Collada .. tricky ..
20130805 10:53:48 <gouessej> Blender already support Collada
20130805 10:54:11 <gouessej> Editor formats are not designed for exchange
20130805 10:54:15 <sgothel> so yes, this 3d editor solution requires the intermediate format .. etc .. so this would be stage2 of the UI .. since it is quite tedious and tricky
20130805 10:54:51 <sgothel> now I have paste the above in the bug reports .. essentially covers all we talked about
20130805 10:55:01 <gouessej> I have to look at InkFace too
20130805 10:55:09 <gouessej> http://code.google.com/p/altcanvas/wiki/InkFace
20130805 10:56:00 <sgothel> we used inkscape to produce the t-shirts
20130805 10:56:52 <sgothel> do I have your address ? to mail 2 to you ?
20130805 10:57:19 <sgothel> -> email pls
20130805 10:57:23 <gouessej> ok
20130805 10:57:30 <sgothel> @Mark: same to Mark !
20130805 10:58:34 <gouessej> you already know my email address, don't you?
20130805 10:58:43 <sgothel> email ? sure
20130805 10:59:47 * xranby (~xranby@anon) has joined #jogamp
20130805 10:59:52 <sgothel> t-shirts won't fit in the EMAIL envelop I am afraid :)
20130805 11:00:51 <xranby> gouessej: hi, good to see you around!
20130805 11:01:20 <gouessej> the ENAC already worked on a SVG GUI framework
20130805 11:01:55 <sgothel> ENAC ?
20130805 11:02:02 <gouessej> http://lii-enac.fr/en/projects/istar/
20130805 11:02:40 <gouessej> look at the partners, it might be interesting
20130805 11:05:39 <sgothel> All interesting, after reaching a 1st stage of a basic tech tool of concept (incl. graph update/cleanup etc) - for sure great to read.
20130805 11:06:17 <sgothel> My problem usually is to put the blinders on to focus on some work, so I am more balanced w/ my time management .. always a problem.
20130805 11:06:57 <sgothel> So thanks to you (Xerxes, Julien, and all ..) .. helping out w/ this review/research and publicity!
20130805 11:07:38 <gouessej> you're welcome
20130805 11:07:39 <sgothel> My time share will be: bug-fixes, Ji Gong, .., then UI
20130805 11:08:28 <gouessej> I'm very close to be ready to use OSM2World
20130805 11:08:48 <gouessej> I have to work on the NEWT controller API too
20130805 11:09:08 <sgothel> we touched that issue as well .. a tiny bit
20130805 11:09:48 <sgothel> you know, .. priorities .. however, more input devices via NEWT is desired, so .. yes .. need to read it!
20130805 11:10:05 <sgothel> can you push the document itself to the JOGL/doc folder via git ?
20130805 11:10:09 <xranby> Ji Gong may need a bug to add deployment, like installers / apk packages for the platforms we target
20130805 11:10:18 <sgothel> so we can work on it ..
20130805 11:10:20 <xranby> deb packages for MeeGo etc
20130805 11:10:31 <sgothel> @Xerxes: sure ..
20130805 11:10:33 <xranby> deb for Tizen
20130805 11:10:49 <sgothel> I barely mentioned it via 'bundling' .. install in the overview
20130805 11:10:58 <sgothel> it needs for sure .. quite a lot :)
20130805 11:11:19 <xranby> good, because this is something that is not covered by the openjdk / icedtea & icedtea-web source
20130805 11:11:27 <sgothel> one idea would be to have an 'extensions' for the browser .. to install the whole thing
20130805 11:11:58 <sgothel> also: the 'exe bundling' we talked about ..
20130805 11:12:03 <gouessej> there is an interesting library to manipulate SVGs dynamically: http://raphaeljs.com/
20130805 11:12:11 <gouessej> exe bundling?
20130805 11:12:14 <gouessej> for Windows?
20130805 11:12:35 <sgothel> yeah, to bundle JRT w/ user application for all platforms (of course) .. maybe even enabling deployment on iOS
20130805 11:13:09 <sgothel> dunno what the name for such thing is .. today
20130805 11:14:07 <gouessej> ok
20130805 11:14:23 <xranby> interesting Tizen have now moved to cover both mobile and desktop... they have created a Tizen PC
20130805 11:14:50 <sgothel> sweet .. how far is Tizen and Mer apart ?
20130805 11:14:54 <xranby> https://wiki.tizen.org/wiki/Tizen_PC
20130805 11:15:56 <xranby> sgothel: Tizen is mentioned in 3rd clause at http://merproject.org/
20130805 11:16:10 <xranby> not sure about the diff
20130805 11:16:27 <sgothel> i.e. Wayland ?
20130805 11:16:43 <xranby> last time i checked it used a traditional X11 server
20130805 11:17:26 <xranby> http://labb.zafena.se/?p=490 - jan 2012 . I tewsted to run openJDK on Tizen
20130805 11:17:30 <xranby> tested
20130805 11:19:53 <xranby> I have to recheck if Tizen 2.x have switched GUI system
20130805 11:22:44 <sgothel> .. added Bug 794 and Bug 795 (both Wayland)
20130805 11:37:46 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/showdependencytree.cgi?id=790&hide_resolved=1
20130805 11:49:16 <gouessej> Should I use the bug report 793 for the UI stuff?
20130805 11:52:28 <sgothel> nope .. Ji Gong is UI agnostic ..
20130805 11:52:39 <sgothel> (as far as possible)
20130805 11:52:41 <gouessej> ok
20130805 11:53:30 <sgothel> we will add a new module for UI .. (under JogAmp core)
20130805 11:55:37 <gouessej> Personally, when I want to use SVG, I use Batik to parse the file and I convert its data to a proper format in order to import it with an engine or I directly build a mesh, not a curve
20130805 11:56:08 <sgothel> I was told .. and I have seen .. that batik is HUGE
20130805 11:56:31 <gouessej> yes but you are not forced to use Batik as a whole
20130805 11:56:41 <gouessej> just the parser and some core things
20130805 11:56:50 <gouessej> you don't need the Swing renderer
20130805 11:56:55 <sgothel> will see how fit our TypeCast parser is ..
20130805 11:57:11 <sgothel> we already move the curves to our types via TypeCast ..
20130805 11:57:21 <sgothel> (font rendering)
20130805 11:58:00 <gouessej> What is exactly TypeCast?
20130805 12:00:21 <sgothel> the TTF parser and data structure / handler for fonts, we use in graph right now.
20130805 12:00:58 <sgothel> jogamp/graph/font/typecast
20130805 12:02:14 <gouessej> ok and as you think TTF is very close to SVG, you assume we could use it
20130805 12:03:51 <gouessej> is there already in JOGL an object representing the content of a VBO (vertices, colors, ...)? I assume you don't want the UI to depend on a 3D engine
20130805 12:04:19 <sgothel> we want the UI to be a 3d representation, yes
20130805 12:04:44 <sgothel> but .. using graph .. -> outline shapes .. etc
20130805 12:04:59 <sgothel> meshes .. optional, later on
20130805 12:07:44 <gouessej> meshes are easier to integrate in existing engines
20130805 12:08:20 <gouessej> and if I try to do something for UIs, I will feel more comfortable with them
20130805 12:08:39 <sgothel> UI 1st stage: Make our Graph-UI demo a real product .. programmable and flexible w/ some file format (SVG first)
20130805 12:08:52 <sgothel> yes .. textures and meshes shall complete the experience
20130805 12:10:49 <gouessej> I think such things might be interesting for Batik guys as some developers asked for an OpenGL renderer
20130805 12:11:09 <gouessej> but I agree with you, Batik as a whole library is big
20130805 12:11:45 <gouessej> maybe it is too much even for parsing as it supports a lot more features than what we need
20130805 12:12:02 <sgothel> ideal would be a common library for SVG + TTF .. w/ small footprint - and great performance. We have to see what is possible.
20130805 12:12:43 <sgothel> so my baby steps in that direction will be to see whether we can parse some SVG test cases .. for UI .. and then going further .. etc
20130805 12:15:45 <gouessej> org.apache.batik.dom.util.SAXDocumentFactory can be used for that, in case TypeCast can't
20130805 12:25:47 * gouessej (546051e4@anon) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
20130805 13:59:19 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/showdependencytree.cgi?id=803&hide_resolved=0
20130805 14:42:43 <xranby> https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Porting/Harmattan - Sailfishos use rpm packages!
20130805 14:51:50 <xranby> http://blog.mikeasoft.com/2012/06/23/writing-native-tizen-applications-using-the-1-0-larkspur-sdk-scratchbox-and-efl/ - Tizen native app creation guide (tizen 1.x)
20130805 14:52:07 <xranby> ... Tizen 2.0 native code ES2 shader tutorial https://developer.tizen.org/help/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.tizen.native.appprogramming%2Fhtml%2Ftutorials%2Fgraphics_tutorial%2Ftask_glesshader.htm
20130805 14:52:51 <xranby> Interesting display EGL type Tizen::Graphics::Opengl::EGLDisplay __eglDisplay;
20130805 14:53:05 <xranby> __eglDisplay = eglGetDisplay((EGLNativeDisplayType)EGL_DEFAULT_DISPLAY);
20130805 15:23:49 <sgothel> that is normal .. interesting what do they use for native-surface -> EGL-surface
20130805 15:24:13 <sgothel> probably the normal X11 windowing XID, since they use X11
20130805 15:25:06 <sgothel> Ok .. the Graph-UI Bug 803 dependency is in, as well as the new NEWT input devices Bug 807
20130805 15:25:12 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/showdependencytree.cgi?id=807&hide_resolved=0
20130805 15:25:41 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=800 <- Windows 8 Touch Screen as well
20130805 15:35:58 <sgothel> @Xerxes: Bugs https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=684 https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=725 are somewhat solved ?
20130805 15:36:12 <sgothel> .. actually for release 2.0.2 .. right ?
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20130805 19:55:18 <xranby1> <sgothel> @Xerxes: Bugs https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=684 https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=725 are somewhat solved ? <-- yes both are, we may close them.
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20130805 20:42:07 <sgothel> good night
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20130806 05:06:06 -jogamp- Continue @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20130806050606.html