#jogamp @ irc.freenode.net - 20131121 05:05:53 (UTC)


20131121 05:05:53 -jogamp- Previous @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20131120050553.html
20131121 05:05:53 -jogamp- This channel is logged @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20131121050553.html
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20131121 08:11:53 <eclesia> good morning
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20131121 08:48:08 <xranby> eclesia: good morning there is some PD discussions in yesterdays irc logs
20131121 08:48:25 <eclesia> xranby: hi
20131121 08:48:31 <xranby> http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20131120050553.html#l53
20131121 08:48:53 <xranby> 20131120 18:08:00 <sgothel> @Xerxes, @Eclesia (for the record): If a piece of source code is written solely by me - I will grant Eclisia a dual PD license to allow him to use that code. Then it's 'legal' :) Don't wanne make things hard in code sharing here.
20131121 08:48:53 <xranby> 20131120 18:08:17 <sgothel> If mixed w/ other authors .. all must agree ..
20131121 08:50:12 <eclesia> I'll have a look at lunch time. (can't use work time for personal stuffs)
20131121 08:53:07 <monsieur_max> eclesia: hehe same for me
20131121 09:18:36 <sgothel> @Harvey: Awesome (focus deadlock)
20131121 09:20:29 <sgothel> re PD dual license: we only cannot 'offer more' than the BSD license, i.e. liability is none! So it will not be just a 'choose one', but at least a 'if choosing PD - same liability/warranty constraints apply as for BSD'
20131121 09:20:53 <sgothel> read: none
20131121 09:21:42 <sgothel> Harvey pointed this difference out yesterday - and he is right. If you offer something, there always is a default warranty mechanism ..
20131121 09:23:10 <xranby> @Sven @Harvey is concurrency broken using 7u45 all over the place?
20131121 09:23:26 <sgothel> not that I know of ?
20131121 09:23:33 <sgothel> what 'concurrency' ?
20131121 09:24:19 <sgothel> ?
20131121 09:24:27 <xranby> i am trying to pin down general jvm concurrency issues that have started to pop up after the most recent jvm security updates
20131121 09:25:06 <sgothel> well, jogamp uses it's own recursive locks .. and the JVM's own mechanisms (monitor, volatile)
20131121 09:25:07 <xranby> deadlocks while running netbeans etc and similar
20131121 09:25:38 <xranby> http://icedtea.classpath.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1602
20131121 09:25:56 <xranby> this is more generic jvm related
20131121 09:26:29 <sgothel> none of our recursive lock unit tests failed!
20131121 09:27:08 <xranby> all the bugreports i have on hand points to thread deallocation issues
20131121 09:27:15 <sgothel> and none of the GL multithreaded either .. no issue we cover at least, it seams
20131121 09:28:38 <sgothel> java/util/concurrent/BlockingQueue <- we don't use join/fork
20131121 09:29:13 <sgothel> when waiting for finished threads, I use plain old notify/sleep and a volatile
20131121 09:30:55 <sgothel> well .. there is one thing w/ Animator w/ involved AWT implementation .. sometimes stop fails to wait for 'finished'. IMHO this has something todo w/ 'new' AWT-EDT behavior .. not clear yet
20131121 09:32:15 <sgothel> thats why I simplified Animator a bit .. to support better maintenance (tolerating the costs for synchronization of 'get' methods)
20131121 09:38:05 <xranby> sgothel: thank you for the hints... http://forums.netbeans.org/topic56099-0-asc-0.html <- this thread points out that locking also started to appear using openjdk 6 on the ubuntu lts after the last security update that got pushed out by jdstrand
20131121 09:39:00 <xranby> from   6b27-1.12.5-0ubuntu0.12.04.1 to 6b27-1.12.6-1ubuntu0.12.04.2
20131121 09:39:34 <xranby> ... horray for security updates...
20131121 10:08:48 <eclesia> sgothel: xranby : for info, the project is provided with 2 'documents' : PD http://unlicense.org/ and CC0 : http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/deed.en the second one is much more 'legal' if we can say, says the same thing but in a more formal way
20131121 10:13:55 <sgothel> @Eclisia: The thing w/ licenses are - they have to be explicitly provided (included) - and if you offer 2 texts .. a recipe how to use them, i.e. how they apply also needs to be provided. If in doubt w/ legalese - assume you try to explain it to a 3 year old - then you are safe :)
20131121 10:14:39 <sgothel> For example, dual licensed stuff usually has something like, you may choose one of the following liceses .. A and / or B .. blabla
20131121 10:15:22 <sgothel> problem _is_, if A provides a warranty to the user (from you), and not B - and the user chooses A - you are not so happy probably
20131121 10:16:02 <sgothel> hence .. the more text and the more licenses provided - the more trouble
20131121 10:16:34 <sgothel> for us here (jogamp): we 'just' want to defend ourselves ..
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20131121 15:20:17 <hharrison> xranby: can't say I've tried Java 7 u45 much yet
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20131121 18:53:47 <Eclesia> sgothel: hi, I've finished reading your talks about PD/BSD.
20131121 18:54:16 <Eclesia> from what I can see no one is opposed to public domain if we can ensure a few things :
20131121 18:54:26 <Eclesia> - that it's legal
20131121 18:54:48 <Eclesia> - that everyone has volontarly agree to it
20131121 18:55:56 <Eclesia> just an idea : we could make a DEVELOPER_OATH.txt file at the root of each project
20131121 18:56:51 <Eclesia> and each developer add a line in it explaining he agree,
20131121 18:57:11 <Eclesia> of course he makes the commit with own account to ensure it's not fake
20131121 18:58:03 <sgothel> the liability is our biggest concern!
20131121 18:58:23 <Eclesia> this way It's dated and we have an explicit evidance in each projects history.
20131121 18:58:51 <sgothel> while almost none of us here understand why using PD over .. BSD .. it seems like we do like to allow you to use our stuff in general, yes
20131121 18:59:21 <sgothel> but we cannot grant more rights to your than covered w/ BSD -> warranty/liability
20131121 19:00:29 <sgothel> the only reason we and some open source groups .. have troubles w/ PD .. we had this discussion - is that it is not generally accepted as a license - thats all, but we don't need to discuss this :)
20131121 19:00:51 <Eclesia> it's not a license after all ^^
20131121 19:00:57 <sgothel> so I will sign an oat, which allows you to do things .. but under same rules ..
20131121 19:01:04 <Eclesia> that's why the OSI do not reconize it
20131121 19:01:07 <sgothel> yes
20131121 19:01:12 <sgothel> and we need a RULE
20131121 19:01:19 <sgothel> because we don't want to get sued
20131121 19:01:39 <sgothel> i.e. in Germany .. default rules would apply
20131121 19:01:52 <sgothel> 6month+ warranty .. etc
20131121 19:02:56 <sgothel> other than that - our BSD license behaves like your PD .. i.e. no restrictions really
20131121 19:03:20 <sgothel> and BSD, ISC .. etc .. they are all sort of proven .. blabla .. yes, I know .. :)
20131121 19:03:55 <Eclesia> here is another developer, making plenty of public domain code :
20131121 19:03:56 <Eclesia> http://nothings.org/stb_vorbis/
20131121 19:04:15 <Eclesia> if you scroll a bit, he makes a small explication of why he used public domain
20131121 19:05:29 <hharrison> yes...and a little further on he disclaims warranty
20131121 19:06:36 <sgothel> this discussion is to help you, Eclesia .. but we may not really give a dual PD license .. only a 'modified PD' one .. with the 'no liability clause' .. which makes it to 90% of what BSD is ..
20131121 19:07:12 <sgothel> so I could sign such 'no liability PD' personally .. even though I don't think it really helps - but I don't want to convince you
20131121 19:07:38 <sgothel> for us, it's easy - we have to ensure the code comes from claimed sources .. and tag it BSD - done
20131121 19:08:23 <sgothel> lets say you like to fork JOGL - then that part must be BSD as a whole
20131121 19:08:27 <Eclesia> I appreciate your concern. :)
20131121 19:08:36 <sgothel> (or a compatible license .. but IANAL)
20131121 19:09:40 <sgothel> just trying to help .. and trying to define what is possible w/o bringing us into trouble
20131121 19:10:23 <sgothel> not exactly what I would call funny good time :)
20131121 19:11:14 <Eclesia> I'll eventualy have to see a lawyer one day or another if I want my project to be adopted.
20131121 19:12:30 <sgothel> hu?
20131121 19:12:55 <Eclesia> To makes things clear I mean.
20131121 19:13:09 <Eclesia> the best way to avoid the problems you talked about
20131121 19:13:11 <sgothel> well, I told you our story .. 2 license audits .. w/ Siemens and Eclipse Foundation
20131121 19:13:33 <sgothel> license is one thing .. good to chose something accepted by 'the world'
20131121 19:13:51 <sgothel> even more important is to ensure origin of code
20131121 19:14:13 <sgothel> hence we require people to be trackable .. i.e. real name commit messages (author)
20131121 19:14:34 <sgothel> so we are able to pull all changes .. if later we learn they are not owned by the authors ..
20131121 19:14:58 <sgothel> if both is given and provable .. a company may like to use your code
20131121 19:15:12 <sgothel> risk assessment ..
20131121 19:15:40 <sgothel> both organisations/companies scanned our source code .. no objections after a long papertrail (Siemens)
20131121 19:16:05 <sgothel> IBM did something similar years ago w/ JOGL1
20131121 19:18:40 <Eclesia> that might be a good idea. the blackduck company can run such analyze.
20131121 19:20:06 <sgothel> using BSD 2clause, ISC, .. would make life easier - especially if you consider all of this .. just saying :)
20131121 19:20:44 <sgothel> problem w/ each _new_ license: it must be confirmed by lawyers
20131121 19:20:56 <Eclesia> not a license :p
20131121 19:20:59 <sgothel> so it's better to use something already accepted .. read .. etc
20131121 19:21:19 <sgothel> dude - again - and again - EVERYTHING HAS A CONTRACT .. explicit or implicit
20131121 19:21:31 * Eclesia disagree
20131121 19:21:33 <sgothel> so - you stuff has a license / contract as well
20131121 19:21:44 <sgothel> so go to your lawyer .. he will agree w/ me!
20131121 19:22:08 <Eclesia> he will. but it doens't mean he's right
20131121 19:22:48 <sgothel> lol - not talking about 'right' - talking about 'the law' - we had this discussion .. thats why I say 'if you consider all this' .. company adoption .. etc
20131121 19:23:18 <sgothel> so if you like your code to be accepted in the corporate world .. etc .. products .. you need to play by those rules
20131121 19:23:18 <Eclesia> and I don't care about laws :D just about free code
20131121 19:23:27 <sgothel> but .. you don't need to - of course
20131121 19:23:42 <sgothel> then - no need to change a thing etc etc
20131121 19:24:16 <sgothel> but then .. your thought above (adoption) was not reflecting your position / reality
20131121 19:26:24 <Eclesia> what do you mean by that ? I have always stick to making the code constraints-less (if this word exist).
20131121 19:28:06 <sgothel> (08:11:14 PM) Eclesia: I'll eventualy have to see a lawyer one day or another if I want my project to be adopted.
20131121 19:28:27 <sgothel> <- considering adoption by ..
20131121 19:33:22 <Eclesia> sorry I think my english wasn't right. I mean : see a lawyer to define the most correct way to declare a contributor resign all his rights/warranty on the code he makes.
20131121 19:34:05 <sgothel> well, we have that already - our BSD license
20131121 19:34:44 <Eclesia> ^^
20131121 19:34:47 <sgothel> read above .. what you pursue is a license/contract .. you, who doesn't want any such :)
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20131121 19:35:26 <sgothel> plus .. this troubles others, since all new contracts must be validates -> expensive
20131121 19:35:36 <sgothel> sure a lawyer would not mind -> money :)
20131121 19:36:47 <sgothel> for me all this 'law game' is a compromise .. since I want our results to be used by all people w/o troubles - thats all
20131121 19:38:08 <sgothel> when I had my 2400 baud modem .. sharing stuff w/ those BBX .. 'public domain' was the first great thing of freedom I agree
20131121 19:39:11 <Eclesia> well then I'll have to make my lib Sooooo great that everyone will take the risk. and when it's spread everywhere no one will deny the fact public domain is legal anymore. :)
20131121 19:39:15 * Eclesia dreaming
20131121 19:39:42 <sgothel> oh dear
20131121 19:39:45 <Eclesia> lol
20131121 19:40:30 <Eclesia> well, back to code. have a DXT reader to work on :)
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20131122 05:05:54 -jogamp- Continue @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20131122050554.html