#jogamp @ irc.freenode.net - 20140806 08:56:27 (UTC)
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20140806 08:56:33 * jogamp (~jogamp@anon) has joined #jogamp
20140806 08:56:34 * Topic is 'http://jogamp.org | Hacking 3D Graphics, Multimedia and Processing across Devices'
20140806 08:56:34 * Set by rmk0 on 20130116 23:58:04
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20140806 11:24:12 <zubzub> does jogl have any (basic?) bindings for mesa?
20140806 11:24:22 <zubzub> I'm interested in accessing this:
20140806 11:24:23 <zubzub> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/tree/docs/specs/WL_bind_wayland_display.spec
20140806 11:24:34 <zubzub> and use it in jogl
20140806 11:24:50 <zubzub> (don't worry about the wayland part, I got that covered)
20140806 11:25:39 <zubzub> I guess the way to go is abstract it away in newt(?)
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20140806 13:30:03 <doev> hi
20140806 13:30:24 <doev> anyone knows a example how to combine opencl and opengl?
20140806 13:30:58 <doev> this one ... http://www.jocl.org/samples/samples.html ... is outdated.
20140806 13:31:28 <monsieur_max> doev: from my expercience with jogamp, you might find more usefull information in the test classes
20140806 13:31:37 <monsieur_max> *experience
20140806 13:33:36 <doev> monsieur_max, in the sources?
20140806 13:34:46 <monsieur_max> mmmh IIRC, it's on github, hold on
20140806 13:35:38 <doev> np, I use the sorces from my download
20140806 13:35:53 <monsieur_max> ok yup then https://github.com/sgothel/jocl
20140806 13:36:30 <monsieur_max> for me, it's the best source of how-to's :)
20140806 13:36:47 <monsieur_max> ( and always up to date )
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20140806 15:14:09 <sgothel> thx Max
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20140806 15:15:04 <sgothel> @Zuzub: we have a wayland bug entry - and these extensions shall be added there
20140806 15:15:35 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=795
20140806 15:15:40 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=794
20140806 15:16:35 <sgothel> @Mark, @All: 2.2.0 will be closed today .. since I have not heard any API complains .. (yet?) .. I guess we are good to go ?
20140806 15:16:54 <sgothel> I started tagging APIs w/ '@since 2.2' .. but this must be completed later ..
20140806 15:18:04 <sgothel> @Harvey: I have send 'blueskytshirts' 2 emails (after design completion, and just now) .. no reply yet
20140806 15:18:17 <sgothel> right .. early in the morning :)
20140806 15:19:05 <monsieur_max> yeepee 2.2 incoming :)
20140806 15:19:13 <sgothel> @doev, @Max: 'doev' probably refers to jocl.org .. hmm
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20140806 15:27:34 <sgothel> If anybody likes to add the '@since major.minor' tags to classes/methods etc .. you can use our semver information produced by com.jogamp.opengl.test.junit.jogl.acore.TestVersionSemanticsNOUI .. go ahead!
20140806 15:35:07 <hharrison> It's still a bit early in the day here
20140806 15:38:36 <sgothel> yup .. good morning
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20140806 15:47:19 <hharrison> morning
20140806 15:47:37 <hharrison> I'm down to one todo left before I consider Java3D 1.6.0-final
20140806 15:47:45 <sgothel> sweet
20140806 15:48:02 <sgothel> you synced w/ 2.2* I guess ..
20140806 15:48:04 <hharrison> weird offscreen rendering save-image problem
20140806 15:48:13 <sgothel> oh ..
20140806 15:48:15 <hharrison> OK...two todos ;-)
20140806 15:48:30 <sgothel> we have an util .. to determine from which buffer to read pixels .. one sec
20140806 15:49:06 <hharrison> It's weird, OSX works, windows/linux don't, maybe a good thing to pick your brain about when you're here
20140806 15:49:25 <hharrison> Have a good test case app
20140806 15:49:53 <sgothel> look in GLJPanel line 1842
20140806 15:50:03 <sgothel> if(gl.isGL2ES3()) {
20140806 15:50:03 <sgothel> final GL2ES3 gl2es3 = gl.getGL2ES3();
20140806 15:50:03 <sgothel> gl2es3.glPixelStorei(GL2ES3.GL_PACK_ROW_LENGTH, panelWidth);
20140806 15:50:03 <sgothel> gl2es3.glReadBuffer(gl2es3.getDefaultReadBuffer());
20140806 15:50:03 <sgothel> }
20140806 15:50:17 <sgothel> getDefaultReadBuffer() <- magic determination of read buffer
20140806 15:50:34 <sgothel> (see API doc)
20140806 15:51:11 <sgothel> .. and then, when to swap buffers .. one sec :)
20140806 15:52:29 <hharrison> It's weird though, the image comes out the right size, but only a subset actually has contents in it (size corresponds to some other texture I think)
20140806 15:54:38 <sgothel> GLDrawableUtil.swapBuffersBeforeRead(..) <- API doc ..
20140806 15:55:16 <sgothel> both shall issues shall be considered for offscreen 'read-pixels' .. i.e. in case of MSAA etc
20140806 15:55:38 <sgothel> otherwise one gets 'one frame' behind .. these kind of issues
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20140806 16:00:33 <hharrison> The issue is from this thread:
20140806 16:00:35 <hharrison> http://forum.jogamp.org/Texture2D-and-offscreen-rendering-problem-td4030882.html
20140806 16:04:38 <hharrison> anyways, not a worry right away
20140806 16:06:09 <hharrison> actually, I think I finally understand your comment in theat thread
20140806 16:06:15 <hharrison> experiment time!
20140806 16:06:20 <sgothel> .. pbuffer only method is gone already !
20140806 16:06:28 <sgothel> better sync jogl now :)
20140806 16:06:45 <sgothel> *the janitor was here* :)
20140806 16:07:01 <hharrison> latest build?
20140806 16:07:26 <hharrison> I'l wait for 2.2.0 release and do a -pre11 to sync up
20140806 16:07:27 <sgothel> aggregating ..
20140806 16:07:41 <hharrison> It's a siggraph tradition ;-)
20140806 16:07:58 <sgothel> hehe
20140806 16:08:34 <sgothel> http://jogamp.org/deployment/archive/master/gluegen_813-joal_557-jogl_1328-jocl_998/
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20140806 22:21:12 <sgothel> T-Shirts are underway .. payed .. and in process :)
20140806 22:22:46 <sgothel> build for 2.2.0 is underway ..
20140806 22:22:52 <hharrison> I'm playing delivery boy again this year I suppose?
20140806 22:23:19 <sgothel> We can go together in Monday .. so we can carry them both :)
20140806 22:24:05 <sgothel> Nicole has to check whether she gets the proper trim color .. I left it up to her decision
20140806 22:24:11 <hharrison> What is your arrivial looking like this year?
20140806 22:24:20 <hharrison> Sunday?
20140806 22:24:40 <sgothel> 2014-08-08 14:15h
20140806 22:24:48 <sgothel> so tomorrow ..
20140806 22:25:03 <sgothel> then I need to work a bit on more demos / BOF presentation
20140806 22:25:12 <sgothel> i.e. Thur - Sun .. :)
20140806 22:25:36 <sgothel> well, here it's thursday already :)
20140806 22:27:05 <sgothel> now .. laptop preparation .. just fixed the stereo stuff .. thx to a processing dude who caught something on OSX :)
20140806 22:28:12 <sgothel> Rami and I chose the SHERATON VANCOUVER WALLCENTRE HOTEL, least expensive .. oh well
20140806 22:38:19 <hharrison> That's a nice place actually
20140806 22:38:28 <hharrison> Surprised it is least expensive
20140806 22:38:59 <hharrison> Re: delivery, I drive a mini, not sure you'll want to come with me ;-)
20140806 22:39:12 <hharrison> I might have to strap you to the roof rack
20140806 22:39:47 <sgothel> cheap I guess b/c of siggraph deal ; hehe .. then, I guess you do it :)
20140806 22:41:21 <hharrison> Sure thing, I'll see you pretty soon I suppose
20140806 22:42:10 <hharrison> I have to run...laters
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20140806 23:14:41 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/wiki/index.php/SW_Tracking_Report_Objectives_for_the_release_2.2.0 <- closed
20140806 23:15:02 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/wiki/index.php/SW_Tracking_Report_Objectives_for_the_release_2.3.0 <- Continuation
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20140807 01:00:55 <sgothel> http://jogamp.org/deployment/v2.2.0/
20140807 01:01:16 <sgothel> maven 2.2.0 released as well on jogamp.org
20140807 01:01:31 <sgothel> @Mark: pls deploy on maven central - thank you!
20140807 01:20:12 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/wiki/index.php/Release_2.2.0
20140807 01:20:40 <sgothel> http://forum.jogamp.org/2-2-0-Release-td4032721.html
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20140807 07:07:41 <eclesia> good morning
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20140807 07:48:04 <zubzub_> jogl 2.2
20140807 07:48:09 <zubzub_> now with gradle support?!
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20140807 08:00:51 <gouessej> Hi
20140807 08:00:59 <gouessej> Gradle support? "gradle init"
20140807 08:01:01 <gouessej> done
20140807 08:01:10 <gouessej> It isn't difficult
20140807 08:01:24 <gouessej> I did it for JogAmp's Ardor3D Continuation
20140807 08:02:11 <gouessej> http://codexplo.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/gradle-to-maven-conversion-and-vice-versa/
20140807 08:05:33 <zubzub_> gradle support as in you're able to start a project from the IDE that uses gradle cache to compose it's classpath
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20140807 08:06:11 <zubzub_> the old mechanism of native lib loading didn't allow it
20140807 08:06:27 <zubzub_> but iirc it changed in 2.2 and it should work no
20140807 08:06:29 <zubzub_> *now
20140807 08:15:15 <gouessej> it works
20140807 08:16:04 <gouessej> I used Gradle to build Ardor3D, I looked at the JARs in the buids/ directory
20140807 08:16:11 <gouessej> They seemed to be correct
20140807 08:16:28 <gouessej> I just lost some information but nothing necessary
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20140807 08:55:57 <rmk0> .o.
20140807 08:56:06 * rmk0 reads backlog
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20140807 09:12:02 * rmk0 deploys
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20140807 10:16:41 * rmk0 watches progress
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20140807 10:40:45 <rmk0> deployed!
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20140807 11:00:53 * ChanServ sets mode +v sgothel
20140807 11:01:15 <sgothel> Good morning - returned from airport ONE DAY TOO EARLY :)
20140807 11:01:19 <rmk0> lo
20140807 11:01:32 <sgothel> For whatever reason .. I had THURSDAY in my mind .. tsts :)
20140807 11:01:59 <sgothel> (and all docs did say 8th .. oh well)
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20140807 11:15:55 <sgothel> @Mark: Thx for the maven central push
20140807 11:16:09 <sgothel> .. and wiki updates
20140807 11:16:45 <sgothel> Will you make a git push with your chapters ? or send it via email .. (BOF, deployment)
20140807 11:23:23 <rmk0> writing it as we speak... will email you the .odp file
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20140807 11:31:08 * rmk0 fights libreoffice
20140807 11:31:24 <sgothel> the template is checked in ..
20140807 11:31:39 <sgothel> i.e. also that 'master' template .. for background ..
20140807 11:31:49 <sgothel> haven't changed for this year yet
20140807 11:32:09 <sgothel> will hit the bed soon .. was assuming already sleeping on the plane :)
20140807 11:33:49 <rmk0> ah, didn't realize there was a template
20140807 11:33:52 <rmk0> *ahem*
20140807 11:33:54 * rmk0 eyes template
20140807 11:34:35 <sgothel> imho you can use the http://jogamp.org/doc/siggraph2014/bof/ jogamp-siggraph2014-bof.odp
20140807 11:34:45 <sgothel> maybe you can edit it already matching this year .. :)
20140807 11:35:02 * rmk0 fetches
20140807 11:35:03 <sgothel> however .. just add your text somewhere in there .. I will merge
20140807 11:35:17 <sgothel> (yup .. in git rep)
20140807 11:35:53 <rmk0> ... ok, i'm dumb. where is this in git?
20140807 11:36:01 <sgothel> jogamp.org
20140807 11:36:15 <sgothel> http://jogamp.org/git/?p=jogamp.org.git;a=summary
20140807 11:36:22 <rmk0> ah!
20140807 11:37:02 <rmk0> hm, the one on github seems out of date
20140807 11:37:11 <sgothel> oh
20140807 11:37:20 <rmk0> (i looked at that first, to fork it)
20140807 11:37:51 <sgothel> + echo github-jogamp
20140807 11:37:51 <sgothel> github-jogamp
20140807 11:37:51 <sgothel> + git push github-jogamp
20140807 11:37:51 <sgothel> X11 forwarding request failed on channel 0
20140807 11:37:51 <sgothel> Everything up-to-date
20140807 11:38:20 <sgothel> https://github.com/sgothel/jogamp.org/commits/master
20140807 11:38:23 <sgothel> in there
20140807 11:38:43 <rmk0> hm
20140807 11:38:47 * rmk0 forks
20140807 11:50:22 <rmk0> hehe... my renderer has all the noted "cons" of Ardor3D
20140807 11:50:35 <rmk0> but they were considered pros in my opinion... conscious design decisions
20140807 11:53:30 <sgothel> hu ? which doc ?
20140807 11:55:36 <rmk0> i was skimming through the master-templ.odp
20140807 11:55:40 <rmk0> came to the page on ardour
20140807 11:55:42 <rmk0> .. ardor3d
20140807 11:56:29 <rmk0> http://outland.iw.int.arc7.info/2014/08/07/cons.png
20140807 11:56:48 <sgothel> oh .. right, that was removed from the BOF slides
20140807 11:56:52 <rmk0> "focused on rendering" is a pro in my opinion... it's a renderer, it shouldn't know anything about input, audio, filesystem handling, etc
20140807 11:57:03 <rmk0> lacking tutorials isn't a pro
20140807 11:57:23 <rmk0> lacking importers is neutral... it's not the business of the renderer to support every format that exists
20140807 11:57:28 <rmk0> that can all be delegated to code outside of the renderer
20140807 11:57:47 <rmk0> allowing users to write arbitrary shaders is also a mistake in my opinion
20140807 11:57:49 <sgothel> Juliens viewpoint here
20140807 11:57:58 <rmk0> urhur
20140807 11:58:08 <zubzub_> 13:56 < rmk0> "focused on rendering" is a pro in my opinion... it's a renderer, it shouldn't know anything about input, audio, filesystem handling, etc
20140807 11:58:11 <zubzub_> ++
20140807 11:58:32 <sgothel> with rendering comes shader :)
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20140807 11:58:54 <rmk0> my own renderer is based purely on opengl 3.1 core, and obviously is entirely shader driven internally
20140807 11:59:02 <rmk0> but it doesn't expose an interface that has users writing their own shaders
20140807 11:59:31 <sgothel> so how shall a user define visual semantics ?
20140807 11:59:35 <rmk0> just gives them a material system that they configure from java with mutable builders and so on... provides normal mapping, environment mapping, refractions, etc
20140807 11:59:54 <rmk0> because i control the shaders, i can ensure that everything interacts with everything else correctly
20140807 12:00:05 <rmk0> they create a light... all surfaces get lit in the correct way, and so on
20140807 12:00:06 <sgothel> sort of FFP .. well, everybody theirs ..
20140807 12:00:17 <rmk0> yeah, is basically a very advanced fixed function thing
20140807 12:01:20 <sgothel> I would like a renderer to do the spatial math and data storage (some spatial DBs exists .. hmm) .. and associate it w/ shader code, i.e. quite simple - more focused on the data
20140807 12:01:40 <sgothel> but .. each tool has their purpose ofc
20140807 12:02:54 <sgothel> one laptop died yesterday .. on of those w/ glued in hardware, duh! (the harddisk ...)
20140807 12:02:59 <rmk0> nasty
20140807 12:03:05 <sgothel> a samsung one .. grr
20140807 12:03:50 <sgothel> browsing for a new one .. w/ NV GPU (no optimus) some higher dpi, >= 15", full keyboard size .. and not too heavy :)
20140807 12:04:00 <sgothel> sadly lenovo does the optimus crap
20140807 12:04:27 <sgothel> yeah, and seems like no AMD GPU is en vogue
20140807 12:05:38 <rmk0> i've basically taken the view with the renderer that users should be freed of the responsibility of trying to get all the different combinations of materials and lights correct
20140807 12:06:09 <rmk0> is mainly for my own use, anyway... i have zero interest in implementing and reimplementing normal mapping over and over
20140807 12:07:06 <sgothel> sure some ready made building blocks, which must not restrict the renderer to be generic (free data/shader association)
20140807 12:07:07 <rmk0> hoping to have something released within the next few months
20140807 12:07:13 <sgothel> great!
20140807 12:07:25 <sgothel> no demo yet ? for monday ? :)
20140807 12:07:28 <sgothel> kick kick
20140807 12:07:33 <rmk0> unfortunately not
20140807 12:07:43 <rmk0> the code isn't even public yet, and i have a lot of documenting to do
20140807 12:08:06 <rmk0> it's just over a year since i started the implementation
20140807 12:08:07 <sgothel> non-public is fine for monday (demo + a little description)
20140807 12:08:23 <rmk0> repository-size: 57765888 bytes (57.8MB)
20140807 12:08:23 <rmk0> artifact-count: 11900 (stored as 3855 full text and 8045 delta blobs)
20140807 12:08:23 <rmk0> artifact-sizes: 16032 average, 1641369 max, 190784833 bytes (190.8MB) total
20140807 12:08:23 <rmk0> compression-ratio: 33:10
20140807 12:08:23 <rmk0> checkins: 489
20140807 12:08:26 <sgothel> (non public code I mean)
20140807 12:08:27 <rmk0> project-age: 397 days or approximately 1.09 years.
20140807 12:08:45 <rmk0> i'm not sure what use it'd be ... "here's this thing that you can't use yet!"
20140807 12:08:54 <rmk0> "or even see a website for!"
20140807 12:09:26 <sgothel> hmm .. more like a design study .. and, 'will be available soon'
20140807 12:10:26 <sgothel> like explain your design decisions .. a bit, for like ~10 minutes or so - dunno, you know best - maybe next year then
20140807 12:10:28 <rmk0> i think a lot of the design would be considered heretical
20140807 12:10:40 <rmk0> "what the hell do you mean i can't write shaders!?"
20140807 12:10:44 <rmk0> "immutable objects?!"
20140807 12:10:47 <sgothel> hehe :)
20140807 12:10:57 <rmk0> http://waste.io7m.com/2014/08/07/0.png
20140807 12:10:58 <sgothel> you cannot be loved by everybody
20140807 12:11:00 <rmk0> http://waste.io7m.com/2014/08/07/1.png
20140807 12:11:03 <rmk0> hehe
20140807 12:11:24 <rmk0> (lacks antialiasing, implementing FXAA is next on the list)
20140807 12:11:27 <sgothel> nice lighting, you got your math right
20140807 12:11:37 <sgothel> horrible FXAA
20140807 12:11:44 <rmk0> horrible horrible FXaa
20140807 12:11:49 <sgothel> I tried it w/ graph (code is in there)
20140807 12:11:56 <rmk0> there aren't many things that are compatible with deferred rendering
20140807 12:11:57 <sgothel> at least for fonts .. forget it
20140807 12:12:25 <rmk0> need something that can be run as a postprocess... FXAA seems like the only really practical option
20140807 12:12:47 <sgothel> so I would have chosen a diff. design, free data/shader association + your tool-set. however, surely very interesting to read and learn about!
20140807 12:13:02 <sgothel> so why not writing up a few magic spots .. w/ pictures - done
20140807 12:13:11 <sgothel> your pipeline etc ..
20140807 12:14:27 <sgothel> reads like a CAD impl. .. btw .. a bit, you take shortcuts .. or 100% from models
20140807 12:14:54 <rmk0> how d'you mean?
20140807 12:15:19 <sgothel> like .. whatever math you do .. quality over performance - or the other way (game)
20140807 12:16:11 <rmk0> ah, right
20140807 12:16:19 <sgothel> i.e. removing details of shape .. (textures) .. or other tricks .., sorry start to talk my mind
20140807 12:16:35 <sgothel> tired :)
20140807 12:16:36 <rmk0> well you know me... i value correctness over just about everything else
20140807 12:16:50 <sgothel> yeah, so I got it right :)
20140807 12:17:06 <rmk0> that's not to say this is low performance though
20140807 12:17:21 <rmk0> i picked deferred shading precisely because it simplifies the shaders and allows for hundreds of lights in the scene at a time
20140807 12:17:29 <rmk0> just isn't doable with forward rendering
20140807 12:17:37 <sgothel> write about it .. and give a few pictures ..
20140807 12:17:43 <sgothel> also LOD ?
20140807 12:17:53 <sgothel> adaptive LOD regarding FPS ?
20140807 12:17:59 <sgothel> another slide ..
20140807 12:18:20 <rmk0> it delegates stuff like that to external code
20140807 12:18:21 <sgothel> never heard about backward rendering :)
20140807 12:18:25 <rmk0> it just draws exactly what you tell it
20140807 12:18:56 <rmk0> if you want to switch to low quality models when they get far away from the viewing plane... you have to tell it to draw low quality models far away from the viewing plane :D
20140807 12:19:37 <sgothel> in C3D we started to degrade the far away objects
20140807 12:19:45 <sgothel> if not matching target fps
20140807 12:20:08 <sgothel> a 'plug in' .. via your external code, I guess
20140807 12:20:27 <rmk0> i think it's more that this serves as the backend for a system
20140807 12:20:29 <sgothel> 2nd time we chat about your code, sure worth a few slides!
20140807 12:20:42 <sgothel> imagemagick for 3d
20140807 12:20:42 <rmk0> i had doom 3 in mind while i was writing this
20140807 12:20:58 <rmk0> the doom 3 renderer is split into a frontend and a backend
20140807 12:21:10 <sgothel> good slides
20140807 12:21:12 <rmk0> the backend does all the spatial partitioning and so on, the backend just draws what it's told
20140807 12:21:28 <rmk0> this is basically a deferred rendering equivalent of the backend
20140807 12:21:45 <rmk0> with a more complex material system and better lighting (variance shadow mapping and so on)
20140807 12:22:06 <rmk0> anything that could be kept out of the core... was
20140807 12:22:28 <sgothel> how about lag ? i.e. user feedback, pushing it in between rendering layers (of loops) ?
20140807 12:22:49 <sgothel> was reading about it when doing my HMD tests
20140807 12:23:07 <sgothel> at least w/ NEWT we have user input off-thread
20140807 12:23:55 <sgothel> however, the idea w/ Carmack's (sic?) timewarp is simply to inject some user input directly into a later post-processing stage
20140807 12:24:28 <sgothel> (using my terminology here .. ahem)
20140807 12:24:33 <rmk0> again, that stuff is considered outside of the domain of the renderer here
20140807 12:24:50 <rmk0> you give it a set of lights, instances, and a framebuffer, and it renders them to the framebuffer when you tell it to
20140807 12:24:56 <rmk0> doesn't know anything about input, time, etc
20140807 12:25:28 <sgothel> so the Q: is can you inject things into any round of postprocessing ? fbo -> fbo -> *input* fbo
20140807 12:25:45 <rmk0> not sure what you mean...
20140807 12:25:59 <sgothel> user controls each rendering iteration ?
20140807 12:26:03 <rmk0> yeah
20140807 12:26:17 <sgothel> (of one target frame) .. ah, so it allows such things, great
20140807 12:26:21 <rmk0> KRendererDeferredType r;
20140807 12:26:31 <rmk0> r.rendereEvaluate(fb, batched_scene);
20140807 12:26:49 <rmk0> and then you do whatever you want with the framebuffer fb (add postprocessing, blit it to the screen, etc)
20140807 12:27:34 <sgothel> nice
20140807 12:28:00 <sgothel> just realized your 3 rooms are RGB :)
20140807 12:28:04 <rmk0> hehe
20140807 12:28:16 <rmk0> the other thing is that it also doesn't allocate resources itself
20140807 12:28:26 <rmk0> you pass it explicit caches and it asks the caches for new "things"
20140807 12:28:26 <sgothel> nice
20140807 12:28:35 <rmk0> so you can control resource usage and so on
20140807 12:28:42 <sgothel> yup, always good to have user control such things
20140807 12:28:54 <rmk0> better than trying to have the renderer manage it... it doesn't know enough to do it effectively
20140807 12:29:25 <rmk0> ... i've no idea how i'm going to fit this into a few slides
20140807 12:29:33 <sgothel> dude .. make a few slides about it, if you can - my on the shelf scenegraph, maybe I add a few as well
20140807 12:29:37 <rmk0> i'm not trying to brag, but there's a lot of stuff in it that i've not seen anywhere else
20140807 12:29:47 <rmk0> basically looked at what opengl programmers were doing and did the opposite
20140807 12:29:57 <rmk0> there's a ton of ground to cover
20140807 12:30:54 <sgothel> 'just' to spread ideas <- thats the goal, not to 'show off' - so sharing your ideas w/ a few slides would be great - plus, it's 'published' sort of then
20140807 12:31:00 <rmk0> hehe... will try to write amusing slides... "here's what it doesn't do!"
20140807 12:31:56 <sgothel> feel lucky, all 3D I was able to do lately was the stereoscopy and some intersection math (picking)
20140807 12:32:04 <sgothel> too much janitor work
20140807 12:32:08 <rmk0> hehe
20140807 12:32:57 <sgothel> must try again to ask for more funding so another 'Sven' can jump in .. uh
20140807 12:33:08 * rmk0 hides under the carpet
20140807 12:33:13 <sgothel> so glad that you do what you do, and all the others
20140807 12:33:31 <sgothel> no need to hide dude! excellent co-op
20140807 12:34:07 <sgothel> my point: I cannot ask for anything, what comes is appreciated very much
20140807 12:34:22 <sgothel> (until we get more money to pay for a living)
20140807 12:34:31 <sgothel> (another living, that is :)
20140807 12:35:04 <rmk0> realize some of this stuff is there to improve the "java" image
20140807 12:35:04 <rmk0> like "it's too slow to do 3D work"
20140807 12:35:04 <rmk0> this renderer would've been a nightmare to write in something like C++
20140807 12:35:04 <rmk0> need a good gc and type system for interfaces and immutable objects
20140807 12:35:24 <sgothel> oh .. tired of that :)
20140807 12:35:34 <rmk0> lost connection there for a few seconds
20140807 12:35:40 * rmk0 eyes log
20140807 12:35:58 <sgothel> don't mention it in your slides - will reduce the 'java' emphasize this year
20140807 12:36:10 <sgothel> it's a graphics show ..
20140807 12:36:13 <rmk0> urhur
20140807 12:36:43 <sgothel> last year .. it was nice to show all demos, little talk .. action speaks louder than words
20140807 12:37:06 <sgothel> if people are coming .. I hope we have a longer Q & A
20140807 12:37:44 <rmk0> there isn't any sort of live broadcast there, is there?
20140807 12:37:55 <sgothel> sorry no, just my recordings
20140807 12:38:07 <rmk0> shame they don't have a better setup
20140807 12:38:09 <sgothel> hope Wade will do the camera job (changing batteries mostly)
20140807 12:38:24 <rmk0> i mean... you'd think a group of thousands of technically minded people could do better than filming the whole thing on someone's camera
20140807 12:38:26 <sgothel> lucky if we have a bit of Wifi
20140807 12:38:31 <rmk0> heh
20140807 12:39:01 <sgothel> not all those 1000 won't come to our show .. :)
20140807 12:39:28 <sgothel> last year was a real test, how good of an actor you are, like: there is no too little role .. :)
20140807 12:39:37 <sgothel> (just 5-10 people there)
20140807 12:39:46 <rmk0> (._.)
20140807 12:40:13 <sgothel> before was much more - however, the videos got some audience
20140807 12:40:36 <sgothel> plus the web access is always very high right after siggraph
20140807 12:40:52 <sgothel> so .. putting your content in there, is good for you
20140807 12:41:19 <sgothel> Qun was first against it (costs), but then .. marketing ..
20140807 12:41:37 <sgothel> i.e. one show a year for marketing, not too bad
20140807 12:42:12 <sgothel> (just trying to convince you to show up next year! :)
20140807 12:42:24 <sgothel> and all the others reading here
20140807 12:43:08 <rmk0> i will make it one year
20140807 12:43:23 <rmk0> never seems to come at a time where i'm able to show up
20140807 12:43:31 <sgothel> btw .. next year I like to do the ASIA one
20140807 12:44:22 <sgothel> they always have good food :)
20140807 12:55:14 <xranby> greetings all, happy 2.2.0 release
20140807 12:55:31 <xranby> sgothel: i will not be able to attend siggraph this year
20140807 12:55:49 <sgothel> Hi Xerxes, yeah .. thought so
20140807 12:56:13 <rmk0> sgothel: https://github.com/io7m/jogamp.org, added three maven slides starting at 88
20140807 12:56:26 <rmk0> not sure if that's what you had in mind... don't think there's much else to add
20140807 12:56:43 <rmk0> in jogamp-siggraph2014-bof.odp, obviously
20140807 12:56:50 <xranby> sgothel: how many more slides do you need before the bof?
20140807 12:57:08 <sgothel> sure .. will looks at it
20140807 12:58:01 <sgothel> xerxes: dunno, must make clear the content first :)
20140807 12:58:13 <sgothel> so stereo, graph - sure
20140807 12:58:22 <sgothel> technical details of GL usage
20140807 12:58:40 <sgothel> walk through new stuff in general, jocl, joal ..
20140807 12:59:40 <sgothel> 3.5 days to do it
20140807 13:05:46 * jvanek (~jvanek@anon) has joined #jogamp
20140807 13:12:38 <sgothel> @Mark: thx - yup, changed the maven text a bit, i.e. first traditional (not 'old' :) - then new fallback method.
20140807 13:13:19 * jvanek (~jvanek@anon) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
20140807 13:13:19 <sgothel> started purging old stuff of 2013 ..
20140807 13:13:21 <rmk0> hehe
20140807 13:13:25 <rmk0> didn't know what word to use
20140807 13:16:11 <rmk0> that's a point actually... i'm never sure whether to fork the JogAmp repositories or the sgothel repositories
20140807 13:16:14 <rmk0> the former feels more correct
20140807 13:16:26 <rmk0> i'm not actually sure who maintains the JogAmp ones
20140807 13:16:47 <sgothel> repo on jogamp.org is the offical one .. but hey, trust me and git-sha1 :)
20140807 13:17:10 <sgothel> (and my gpg signatures)
20140807 13:17:32 <sgothel> I cross push always
20140807 13:53:31 * gouessej (5ee4b442@anon) has joined #jogamp
20140807 13:53:59 <gouessej> Hi
20140807 13:54:06 <gouessej> What was wrong in the document?
20140807 13:54:14 <gouessej> Maybe I misspelled something
20140807 13:54:26 <gouessej> Maven is a big pro for Ardor3D
20140807 13:55:21 <gouessej> Yes the huge lack of tutorials for Ardor3D has been a big problem for years.
20140807 13:56:32 <rmk0> lo
20140807 13:56:39 <gouessej> As far as I know, it refrained a lot of developers to use our engine
20140807 13:57:27 <gouessej> rmk0, what did you mean by "my renderer has all the noted "cons" of Ardor3D"?
20140807 13:57:55 <rmk0> hehe, was just my opinion that four of the five points listed as cons for Ardor3D aren't cons in my opinion
20140807 13:58:04 <rmk0> ... s/in my opinion//g
20140807 13:58:21 <rmk0> is rare to find a 3d renderer that doesn't also try to implement the rest of the world
20140807 13:58:54 <rmk0> this was back in the siggraph 2013 slides
20140807 13:59:45 <gouessej> Ok but Maven has never been seen as a con to me
20140807 14:00:02 <rmk0> don't... think anyone said it was a con?
20140807 14:00:19 <gouessej> I'll look at this document, I don't remember where it is
20140807 14:01:11 <rmk0> http://outland.iw.int.arc7.info/2014/08/07/cons.png
20140807 14:01:17 <rmk0> was only that page
20140807 14:01:24 <gouessej> the url doesn't work :s
20140807 14:01:36 <rmk0> oops
20140807 14:02:02 * rmk0 waits for upload
20140807 14:02:27 <rmk0> connection is excruciatingly slow and flaky today... don't know what's going on
20140807 14:03:06 <rmk0> http://waste.io7m.com/2014/08/07/cons.png
20140807 14:04:03 <gouessej> Thanks
20140807 14:04:29 <gouessej> Ardor3D != LibGDX. Ardor3D is intended to be an high level API
20140807 14:04:47 <rmk0> don't know what libgdx is
20140807 14:05:25 <gouessej> In Earth science, some developers like having ready to use importers for their favorite formats
20140807 14:05:58 <gouessej> Supporting only Collada, OBJ, MD2 and MD3 isn't enough
20140807 14:06:33 <rmk0> that to me doesn't suggest that any of that stuff should be in ardor3d... i'd personally rather have specific libraries for each format and instead have the input to ardor3d be typed vertex buffer objects
20140807 14:06:39 <rmk0> is the approach i've taken for my own renderer
20140807 14:07:39 <rmk0> libgdx looks "high level" to me
20140807 14:07:54 <rmk0> or at least it looks like "we smashed together a load of libraries into a questionable framework"
20140807 14:08:13 <gouessej> They aren't typed VBOs, they are nodes.
20140807 14:08:18 <gouessej> or meshes
20140807 14:08:31 <gouessej> Yes LibGDX is a middle level API
20140807 14:08:33 <rmk0> urhur
20140807 14:10:18 <gouessej> The lack of sound support isn't very difficult to overcome but most major high level APIs provide it
20140807 14:10:52 <gouessej> JMonkeyEngine has SpiderMonkey for the networking
20140807 14:11:04 <gouessej> I use Fettle for the state machines
20140807 14:12:27 <gouessej> LibGDX and JMonkeyEngine allow to write games quite quickly, almost everything is ready, it's self sufficient.
20140807 14:13:14 <gouessej> There are different solutions to fit into different needs.
20140807 14:13:33 <gouessej> That's why there is no official JOGL 3D engine
20140807 14:13:33 <rmk0> having used jmonkeyengine... i'm not convinced anything is ready there
20140807 14:13:35 <rmk0> it's pretty awful
20140807 14:14:15 <gouessej> it's less reliable but the situation is less bad than with JMonkeyEngine 2
20140807 14:14:29 <gouessej> less reliable than Ardor3D
20140807 14:15:52 <gouessej> Actually, Ardor3D is more than a renderer.
20140807 14:16:19 <gouessej> I should write "was" as now it's JogAmp's Ardor3D Continuation
20140807 14:16:44 <gouessej> What did you find awful in JMonkeyEngine?
20140807 14:17:37 <rmk0> all of it, really
20140807 14:17:49 <gouessej> lol
20140807 14:17:51 <rmk0> one of those giant frameworks where you have to learn the whole thing to do anything, except that the documentation isn't even worth having
20140807 14:18:15 <rmk0> and even with all that code... i'd still have to hand-write shaders to implement things like shadow mapping
20140807 14:18:37 <rmk0> it felt like it was doing lots of work for me that i didn't need doing, and leaving work for me that i actually wanted the renderer to do for me!
20140807 14:18:53 <gouessej> JMonkeyEngine's documentation is one of its strong point, it starts from the very basic concepts and explains lots of aspects.
20140807 14:19:07 <rmk0> it was also unwieldly... a massive manual download that i had to shoehorn into eclipse somehow
20140807 14:19:10 <rmk0> no maven packages
20140807 14:19:30 <gouessej> Ok, so you prefer something focused on rendering
20140807 14:19:39 <rmk0> that's all i wanted
20140807 14:19:45 <rmk0> "just" a renderer
20140807 14:19:48 <rmk0> ended up doing it myself
20140807 14:21:58 <rmk0> the issue as i see it is that basically nobody develops focused packages like that
20140807 14:22:10 <rmk0> they always included everything and the kitchen sink, in an attempt to be everything to everyone
20140807 14:23:05 <rmk0> end up spending more time trying to force the framework to do what you want, and trying to work out how best to get it to tangle into yor program than actually doing real work
20140807 14:23:06 <gouessej> What do you mean by "focused packages"?
20140807 14:23:24 <rmk0> well i can only give the example of the renderer i've just developed
20140807 14:23:44 <rmk0> it doesn't know anything about input handling, physics, UI aspects
20140807 14:24:29 <rmk0> it doesn't know anything about spatial partitioning... it's a completely dumb system that draws exactly what you tell it, when you tell it
20140807 14:25:40 <rmk0> there's no scene graph, no "resource handling"
20140807 14:25:44 <rmk0> etc
20140807 14:26:18 <rmk0> as far as i know, it's unique precisely because it just does that and nothing else
20140807 14:26:45 <gouessej> Ok I see what you mean but you know that some developers might have different needs. Otherwise, there wouldn't be several scenegraphs.
20140807 14:27:09 <rmk0> everyone has different needs... i see that as an argument against giant 3D engines that implement everything
20140807 14:27:17 <rmk0> because it's not possible to satisfy everyone
20140807 14:27:29 <rmk0> i'd rather have very small focused packages that implement one thing, that people can combine to actually meet their own needs
20140807 14:27:35 <gouessej> It's not a problem as long as they are modular
20140807 14:27:50 <rmk0> yep... as far as i can tell, none of them are
20140807 14:27:52 <rmk0> i wish they were!
20140807 14:27:56 <gouessej> Ardor3D is composed of about 10 sub-projects
20140807 14:28:25 <gouessej> For example, its math library can be used without its core
20140807 14:28:38 <gouessej> You can use your own UI without ardor3d-ui
20140807 14:29:00 <gouessej> If you don't need Collada, don't take ardor3d-collada
20140807 14:29:12 <rmk0> that's sort of a red flag right there... why does it even have its own math library? it's not as if the type of math is solely useful to 3D engines
20140807 14:29:31 <gouessej> There is an excellent reason
20140807 14:29:44 <gouessej> It looks like vecmath but it is more GC friendly
20140807 14:30:08 <rmk0> that... doesn't explain why it's actually part of the ardor3D project
20140807 14:30:34 <rmk0> i wrote http://mvn.io7m.com/io7m-jtensors/ ... it's used in many of my projects, and it's certainly not part of the renderer
20140807 14:31:02 <gouessej> it's not a part of the renderer which is described in the core and implemented mostly in ardor3d-jogl
20140807 14:31:20 <rmk0> i mean that jtensors isn't part of my renderer
20140807 14:31:27 <rmk0> it's not related to it in any way
20140807 14:31:46 <rmk0> the ardor3d math library is part of the ardor3d project, despite not actually being unique to ardor3d in any way
20140807 14:32:09 <rmk0> there's always a temptation in software projects to keep accumulating subprojects like that... i think it's the wrong way to do things
20140807 14:32:10 <gouessej> I can rename ardor3d-math my-lovely-maths, it can still be used without the rest of the engine
20140807 14:32:20 <rmk0> right, yes, i'm not disputing that
20140807 14:32:51 <gouessej> Anybody can just cherry pick and throw away whatever she/he wants
20140807 14:33:28 <rmk0> that's exactly what i'm advocating against
20140807 14:34:03 <rmk0> with a lot of separate packages that only do one thing each, it becomes a case of aggregating only those that are needed, rather than taking things away from a larger whole
20140807 14:34:19 <rmk0> but actually developing things as tiny, isolated packages helps in terms of making those packages correct
20140807 14:35:03 <rmk0> maybe my view is extreme, i don't know
20140807 14:35:09 <rmk0> not many people seem to share it
20140807 14:35:28 <gouessej> I don't see what you mean. Each sub-project has a separate pom.xml file, its own JAR. It's not difficult to take only what you need
20140807 14:36:12 <rmk0> i'm not sure i can explain myself any other way
20140807 14:37:15 <rmk0> doesn't help that i can't even type without an obscene lag
20140807 14:38:17 <gouessej> Even the core of Ardor3D isn't mandatory, I don't see how it could be modular except by splitting it again and again until having modules that don't rely on themselves.
20140807 14:38:29 * bbbruce_ (~bx@anon) has joined #jogamp
20140807 14:38:31 <gouessej> "how it could be more modular"
20140807 14:39:14 * bbbruce (~bx@anon) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20140807 14:39:14 * bbbruce_ is now known as bbbruce
20140807 14:40:11 <rmk0> feel like this conversation is more about jmonkeyengine than it is ardor3d
20140807 14:40:39 <rmk0> it's not just about being able to break a project up into jars, it's about the conceptually simplicity of the project itself, too
20140807 14:40:49 <rmk0> jmonkeyengine certainly isn't simple... it's a whole framework
20140807 14:40:49 <gouessej> Why? Both are similar, Ardor3D is less capable.
20140807 14:40:58 <rmk0> *conceptual
20140807 14:43:02 <gouessej> What do you mean by "conceptual simplicity"?
20140807 14:43:31 <rmk0> feel like i'm answering questions i've already answered... will try putting it another way
20140807 14:43:38 <rmk0> latency seems to have cleared up
20140807 14:43:53 <rmk0> consider what i was doing about eighteen months ago
20140807 14:44:11 <rmk0> was working towards putting together a commercial game that required some sort of 3D renderer
20140807 14:44:49 <rmk0> i knew that i needed something roughly equivalent to what the doom 3 renderer is capable... essentially, normal mapping, diffuse/specular lighting, environment mapping, shadows
20140807 14:44:54 <rmk0> *is capable of
20140807 14:46:10 <rmk0> i looked at the available options... ardor3d seemed to have a questionable future (they seemed allergic to shaders, and it wasn't clear if anyone was even maintaining it)
20140807 14:46:37 <rmk0> checked jmonkeyengine... massive download, huge api, documentation that was expansive but out of date and apparently incorrect in most places
20140807 14:46:52 <rmk0> i didn't look into ardor3d much because of the issues i just mentioned
20140807 14:47:05 <rmk0> i tried working with jmonkeyengine for a month or so
20140807 14:47:13 <rmk0> eventually just quit in disgust
20140807 14:47:48 <rmk0> it's a huge framework, and as a user of that framework, it felt more like i was trying to crowbar my program into the framework
20140807 14:47:55 <rmk0> like it was the one in charge
20140807 14:48:34 <gouessej> The fully shader based pipeline was planned for Ardor3D 2.0 and GooEngine is fully shader based. I'm sure that Renanse isn't allergic to shaders, maybe I'm allergic to them a little bit.
20140807 14:48:38 <rmk0> it had a whole "object-oriented" (*spit*) scene graph, a shader based system (that required me to write all my own shaders to do anything useful)
20140807 14:48:52 <rmk0> i tried a few things, they didn't work correctly, nobody knew why
20140807 14:49:20 <rmk0> as with any massive, incredibly general framework, the number of ways to use it incorrectly severely outweighs the number of ways to use it correctly
20140807 14:49:35 <rmk0> nobody's testing every possible way to use it... it just isn't possible
20140807 14:49:38 <gouessej> I agree about the needs to rewrite the shaders
20140807 14:49:45 <gouessej> Someone else complained about that too
20140807 14:49:46 <zubzub_> looks like this is a case of new jersey vs mit style lib
20140807 14:49:59 * zubzub_ is now known as zubzub
20140807 14:50:04 <rmk0> after doing all that stuff, i realized that i'd still end up having to basically write my own system on top of jmonkeyengine, just to get it to do the work i thought it should already be doing for me
20140807 14:50:19 <rmk0> i consider all that stuff to be a direct consequence of the design philosophy
20140807 14:50:33 <rmk0> "make massive generalized things that don't really do any one thing well"
20140807 14:50:47 <zubzub> http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
20140807 14:51:11 <gouessej> Sometimes, we want to do too much things at the same time :s
20140807 14:51:11 <rmk0> yeah... is probably that
20140807 14:53:09 <gouessej> For example, it happened with the importers of JMonkeyEngine 2. I would have preferred fewer but more reliable importers than more and less reliable importers.
20140807 14:53:49 <rmk0> my philosophy there would be "don't have any importers at all"
20140807 14:53:52 <gouessej> I still have to fix something in the MD2 importer :s
20140807 14:54:07 <rmk0> everything that can be kept out, should be kept out!
20140807 14:54:25 <gouessej> it's in ardor3d-extras and ardor3d-collada, not in the core
20140807 14:54:32 <rmk0> good!
20140807 14:55:28 <gouessej> but ardor3d-extras is becoming obese as time goes by... because of me :p
20140807 14:55:48 <eclesia> hi all, just finished reading alll of it.. rmk0 give a try at unlicense-lib 3d engine, the design is completely different from jmonkeyengin,ardor,xidth,... maybe you will like it.
20140807 14:55:59 <rmk0> eclesia: already written a renderer
20140807 14:56:09 <rmk0> that's... what i've been doing for the past 13 months
20140807 14:56:43 <eclesia> that was just to see the design, not forcing anyone :)
20140807 14:57:36 <eclesia> (and also because I would appreciate some feedback :D)
20140807 14:59:24 <gouessej> We'll end up with 12 APIs doing mostly the same thing, great :(
20140807 14:59:28 <rmk0> anyway... doesn't matter now. have a lovely deferred renderer with a material system that can express everything present in valve's source engine, and (almost) everything square enix's deus ex human revolution engine
20140807 14:59:41 <rmk0> and it doesn't know what a keyboard or mouse is
20140807 14:59:43 <rmk0> i'm satisfied!
20140807 15:00:05 <rmk0> will get something out in the next few months
20140807 15:00:19 <rmk0> will be spending the next month or so documenting everything in excruciating detail
20140807 15:01:10 <gouessej> Good luck. I'm alone and Ardor3D 1.0 won't be released this year.
20140807 15:01:28 <rmk0> gouessej: why is it you're doing this stuff?
20140807 15:02:50 <rmk0> i don't want to insult your work or anything... sounds like a lot of pain to go through for very little reward
20140807 15:05:36 <gouessej> I'm not looking for a reward, I've already lost too much things in my life because of a useless quest of gratefulness.
20140807 15:06:20 <rmk0> there's always a reward, even if it's "just" satisfaction in work well done
20140807 15:06:25 <gouessej> Truly Unusual Experience of Revolution® requires JogAmp's Ardor Continuation, it must work.
20140807 15:06:27 <rmk0> just wondering why you're doing it!
20140807 15:06:42 <gouessej> I don't want to rewrite my game once again
20140807 15:06:48 <rmk0> arhar
20140807 15:06:59 <gouessej> and anyway, it will never be an AAA game
20140807 15:07:04 <gouessej> I'm not an artist
20140807 15:08:21 <eclesia> rmk0: chen you said val source engine, that means you parse MDL/VTX/VMT/... ?
20140807 15:08:25 <eclesia> when*
20140807 15:08:51 <rmk0> eclesia: nope, just meant that it can achieve the same visual effects... they use a lot of generic refraction and environment maps
20140807 15:09:21 <rmk0> i only support collada, to the degree that i support anything at all
20140807 15:09:29 <rmk0> and only to get data out of blender
20140807 15:10:15 <gouessej> Do you succeed in exporting all frames of animation to Collada with Blender?
20140807 15:10:37 <eclesia> you can pick the blender parser in unlicense if you want
20140807 15:10:52 <rmk0> i've not tried exporting animations... skeletal animation is outside of the scope of the renderer
20140807 15:11:07 <rmk0> it takes vertex buffer objects that have already been deformed as input :D
20140807 15:11:16 <rmk0> is the animation export broken?
20140807 15:12:21 <gouessej> 2 years ago, it only exported the first frame :(
20140807 15:12:27 <rmk0> nasty
20140807 15:12:46 <rmk0> it must be hell to maintain a widely used plugin for blender
20140807 15:13:01 <rmk0> i rewrote a plugin for it three times, each time the idiotic python "API" changed
20140807 15:13:06 <gouessej> yes it is, I had to modify some of its semi broken importers
20140807 15:13:08 <rmk0> gave up, started importing collada instead
20140807 15:13:38 <rmk0> who knew exporting the entire mutable state of your program as a pile of python data structures was a bad idea?
20140807 15:13:44 <gouessej> I had similar concerns, "my" scripts got broken 3 times, at each minor version.
20140807 15:14:18 <gouessej> I'm against supporting Blender format as it is the format of an editor, it isn't a storage or exchange format
20140807 15:14:48 <rmk0> this stuff is rampant when languages like python are involved... people just try to pretend it doesn't happen
20140807 15:14:50 <eclesia> strange, I don't have much problem with the blender format. it's like parsing an XSD and an xml. dynamic structure
20140807 15:14:51 <rmk0> i've got no time for it
20140807 15:14:57 <rmk0> yeah... i'd not import blender files either
20140807 15:15:13 <rmk0> no stable written standard that i'm aware of
20140807 15:15:19 <gouessej> eclesia, it has changed a lot especially since 2.50
20140807 15:15:31 <gouessej> Tons of importers have been removed.
20140807 15:15:43 <eclesia> there is, the file contains it's own structure definition. called DNA
20140807 15:16:13 <rmk0> erk
20140807 15:16:24 <gouessej> I prefer using JFPSM to convert my MD2 models to WaveFront OBJ in order to edit them in Blender without having to install unmaintained import scripts.
20140807 15:16:26 <eclesia> of course if you don't parse it and expose it like a 'tree-like' structure you are screwed
20140807 15:17:51 <gouessej> Blender is a nice software, I like it, but I don't need the interest of supporting editor formats. It's like using an anvil to brush your teeth.
20140807 15:18:02 <rmk0> hehe
20140807 15:18:17 <gouessej> "I don't see"
20140807 15:18:32 <rmk0> i use it exclusively... but it has a lot of faults
20140807 15:19:20 <gouessej> Have you ever used it with an interactive pen?
20140807 15:19:27 <rmk0> nope!
20140807 15:19:51 <rmk0> assume that's one of those things produced by wacom and the like?
20140807 15:21:04 <gouessej> Yes
20140807 15:21:17 <rmk0> how well does it work?
20140807 15:21:19 <gouessej> but Wacom has probably some competitors...
20140807 15:21:24 <rmk0> seems like it'd be too keyboard heavy
20140807 15:21:30 <gouessej> I would like to give it a try
20140807 15:21:46 <gouessej> I drew a lot when I was younger
20140807 15:21:58 <gouessej> I would feel better with an interactive pen
20140807 15:27:36 <rmk0> find the data management side of it the most annoying
20140807 15:27:59 <rmk0> if you want to build an object out of separate smaller objects... you can't really group them and then apply modifiers to the group
20140807 15:28:08 <rmk0> like... you can use the "array" modifier with groups
20140807 15:28:36 <rmk0> you might use the array modifier to create a hundred instances of a model of a streetlamp in order to populate an outdoor scene
20140807 15:28:57 <rmk0> but... without it working with groups, you basically have to apply some insane hack workaround
20140807 15:29:02 <rmk0> more or less works by accident
20140807 15:29:10 <rmk0> bet the behaviour isn't consistent between versions
20140807 15:29:27 <rmk0> and importing objects ("linking") from other blend files is generally painful
20140807 15:30:06 <rmk0> there's no library management, and it's hard to do things the right way (there are lot of ways to do it wrong, and most of those are the ways you'd expect it to work)
20140807 15:30:39 <rmk0> not sure how these people that create full feature films in it get by... think a lot of them are working with extra tools just to deal with the current problems in blender
20140807 15:31:06 <rmk0> is a shame, because a lot of the problems are caused by design flaws, so they likely won't get fixed
20140807 15:33:00 <rmk0> suppose i could try wings3d again
20140807 15:37:27 <gouessej> Wings3D is less capable
20140807 15:38:12 <rmk0> most likely
20140807 15:39:51 <gouessej> As far as I remember, it only works under Windows
20140807 15:40:14 <gouessej> Ok I have to leave. Bye.
20140807 15:40:18 <rmk0> byeee!
20140807 15:40:33 <rmk0> wings3d works on everything, or at least it did
20140807 15:40:41 <gouessej> sgothel, let me know whether I have to write something about ArdorCraft API.
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20140807 15:41:08 <rmk0> ah, forgot it couldn't do animations
20140807 15:41:12 <rmk0> bleh!
20140807 15:42:00 <rmk0> was "art of illusion" i was thinking of
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20140807 19:18:41 * Eclesia update 2.2.0 succesfull, no bugs so far
20140807 19:20:04 <Eclesia> rmk0: the engine you are building is for a project ? or for fun ?
20140807 19:21:03 <rmk0> is for a commercial game, but it'll be open source
20140807 19:21:14 <rmk0> (the game too)
20140807 19:23:15 <rmk0> going for the "open source engine, payware content" model
20140807 19:23:41 <rmk0> seems the sanest
20140807 19:25:24 <Eclesia> somekind of mmorpg ?
20140807 19:25:44 <rmk0> not mmo, no
20140807 19:25:57 <rmk0> single and co-op multiplayer adventure type thing
20140807 19:26:13 <rmk0> story-driven
20140807 19:26:57 <Eclesia> k, let's hope it will be a success :)
20140807 19:27:01 <rmk0> the intent was to build something that comes with full editing tools and so on, so that people can produce new content for it easily
20140807 19:27:11 <rmk0> thanks! hope so... think it has all the ingredients to be a success
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20140807 19:29:13 <rmk0> in the worst case, if the game doesn't work out, i still have all the components that can be used
20140807 19:29:28 <rmk0> paid support for the renderer or something... works on ES3, so it'll be usable for the mobile markets and so on
20140807 19:30:19 <rmk0> Eclesia: you got use for a public domain vector/matrix math library?
20140807 19:30:37 <rmk0> http://mvn.io7m.com/io7m-jtensors/
20140807 19:30:50 <rmk0> it's ISC licensed now, but i can dedicate a version to the public domain and donate it
20140807 19:31:05 <rmk0> is the only thing i have that you could conceivably use, i think
20140807 19:33:11 <Eclesia> rmk0: looking at it, if there are things I don't have yet
20140807 19:33:31 <Eclesia> ISC license ? never seen this one
20140807 19:33:57 <rmk0> is the license preferred by openbsd now
20140807 19:34:03 <rmk0> basically the most stripped down bsd license possible
20140807 19:34:11 <Eclesia> nice
20140807 19:34:20 <rmk0> http://mvn.io7m.com/io7m-jtensors/license.html
20140807 19:34:45 <rmk0> is possibly the least restrictive anyone can be without trying to dedicate to the public domain
20140807 19:35:33 <Eclesia> rmk0: repository link on page : http://mvn.io7m.com/io7m-jtensors/releases.html#Releases isn't working
20140807 19:35:47 * rmk0 eyes it
20140807 19:36:07 <rmk0> ...
20140807 19:36:22 <rmk0> oh ... looks like i've not pushed any releases since that page was created
20140807 19:36:27 <rmk0> they're all on maven central anyway
20140807 19:36:37 <rmk0> that link will become valid when 6.0.0 comes out
20140807 19:36:54 <rmk0> http://fossil.io7m.com/repo.cgi/io7m-jtensors/index
20140807 19:37:00 <rmk0> can download a tarball of the latest version from there
20140807 19:37:09 <rmk0> ... somehow... think you have to log in as "anonymous"
20140807 19:37:23 <rmk0> stops spiders from causing damage on the site
20140807 19:38:34 <rmk0> ah, yeah... if you log in as anonymous, you can download a snapshot of any revision on the timeline
20140807 19:38:44 <rmk0> http://fossil.io7m.com/repo.cgi/io7m-jtensors/info/tip
20140807 19:41:29 <Eclesia> thx
20140807 19:43:49 <rmk0> probably the only thing i've ever written that has 100% test coverage
20140807 19:43:56 * xranby (~xranby@anon) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
20140807 19:43:58 <rmk0> the linear nature of most of it makes it possible
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20140807 19:47:06 <Eclesia> rmk0: funny thing, you have choosen a different design. you have multiple different classes of vector/matrix/quaternion. like in vecmath or ardor3d. on my side I have general N dimension vectors/matrices. only one class of each + 2 special ones (matrix3 and matrix4)
20140807 19:48:00 <rmk0> i didn't want to have run-time bounds checking, basically
20140807 19:48:27 <rmk0> any code that uses a Vector{M,I}3F is obviously statically guaranteed to only be able to access three elements
20140807 19:48:42 <rmk0> rather than having an n-element vector and having to do run-time bounds checks
20140807 19:49:01 <rmk0> that's the only reason, really
20140807 19:49:33 <Eclesia> I don't check anything, new Vector(3), and get(index) or getX/Y/Y methods. it's just an array behind
20140807 19:49:47 <Eclesia> X/Y/Z/W*
20140807 19:50:05 <rmk0> what i mean is, the actual user is capable of specifying an invalid index and getting an exception
20140807 19:50:39 <Eclesia> the down side is you dont have a common interface for all your matrices and vectors
20140807 19:50:55 <rmk0> it is a downside, but it hasn't been a problem to date
20140807 19:51:03 <Eclesia> forcing the user to transform/copy when necessary
20140807 19:52:17 <rmk0> statically enforcing correctness is more of a concern for me than anything else
20140807 19:52:30 <rmk0> requires dependent types in order to do this properly, but java obviously doesn't have them
20140807 19:53:02 <Eclesia> rmk0: there isn't much thing I don't have yet, I could say there is more in my lib from what I see. exept for the Orthonormalized : what is that ?
20140807 19:54:09 <rmk0> it's a 3-tuple of vectors that are guaranteed to be of unit-length and orthogonal to each other
20140807 19:54:28 <rmk0> would typically use them to represent a set of axes... i use them in normal mapping, for example
20140807 19:55:20 <Eclesia> I see, a cartesian system axis
20140807 19:55:35 <rmk0> urhur
20140807 19:56:32 <Eclesia> ?
20140807 19:56:48 <rmk0> er ... "yes"
20140807 19:56:53 <Eclesia> lol
20140807 19:57:00 <rmk0> sorry, hehe, got in the habit of saying that
20140807 19:57:14 <rmk0> pretty sure it's from that old web comic, weebl and bob
20140807 19:57:15 <Eclesia> Are you an orc ? :D
20140807 19:57:27 <rmk0> not yet!
20140807 19:57:55 <Eclesia> I don't see any euler stuuf in the lib
20140807 19:57:58 <Eclesia> stuff*
20140807 19:58:28 <rmk0> nah, i only use quaternions
20140807 19:59:39 <Eclesia> but models often store rotations as euler angles, if you want a complete math lib, you should add them
20140807 20:00:42 <Eclesia> nice lib you have, but nothing I don't already have, sorry :)
20140807 20:01:13 <rmk0> no worries... was looking at things you might be able to use and that seemed like the only one
20140807 20:01:55 <Eclesia> the vector font rendering code is definetly interesting me ... if it can be made public xD
20140807 20:02:14 <rmk0> oh... jpismo? it's not vector, sadly
20140807 20:02:29 <rmk0> i literally render text using awt into opengl textures
20140807 20:03:00 <Eclesia> hm, nope, sgothel was talking about another one, for his widgets
20140807 20:03:12 <Eclesia> vector quality, with curves and so on
20140807 20:03:28 <rmk0> oh yeah, rami and sgothel have something like that
20140807 20:11:38 <Eclesia> rmk0: http://jsorel.developpez.com/temp/widgets2.png
20140807 20:11:58 <Eclesia> would be awesome with higher quality fonts :D
20140807 20:13:30 <Eclesia> be back later. ++
20140807 20:16:35 * rmk0 waves
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20140807 21:22:30 * Eclesia is back
20140807 21:24:42 <Eclesia> good night ++
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20140807 21:30:34 <hharrison> Java3D 1.6.0-pre11 is out there, requires JOGL 2.2.0
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20140807 23:39:29 <AsoC> Hi, the online javadoc for jogl version 2.2.0 (also current and next) is missing some packages (newt) http://jogamp.org/deployment/jogamp-next/javadoc/jogl/javadoc/
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20140808 05:05:27 -jogamp- Continue @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20140808050527.html