#jogamp @ irc.freenode.net - 20141022 05:06:24 (UTC)

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20141022 06:31:06 <eclesia> good morning
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20141022 08:34:28 <gouessej> Hi
20141022 08:34:45 <gouessej> sgothel: I need some information about the support of Apple Java
20141022 08:36:14 <gouessej> sgothel: Why are there still some developers who get NoClassDefFoundError for classes in apple/awt when using JOGL 2 if it is intended to work with Apple Java?
20141022 08:39:21 <gouessej> sgothel: Actually, Java 3D 1.6.0 doesn't work with Apple Java but maybe JOGL still does
20141022 08:48:43 <gouessej> sgothel: Yesterday, I wasn't talking only about 32 bits support
20141022 09:02:37 <gouessej> sgothel: Apple provided Java 3D 1.3.1 uses apple.awt.* :s
20141022 09:11:40 <sgothel> Goody
20141022 09:12:31 <sgothel> NoClassDefFoundError: I dunno - I tested here w/ a downloaded Apple JVM and some manual test worked well (32- and 64bit)
20141022 09:13:08 <sgothel> The problem was that we dropped 32bit support on OSX accidental, by upgrading OSX
20141022 09:17:19 <gouessej> ok
20141022 09:17:35 <gouessej> Do you confirm that we don't use apple.awt.x classes?
20141022 09:17:45 <gouessej> or sun.awt.* classes?
20141022 09:17:55 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1050 <- this here
20141022 09:18:07 <sgothel> we don't need those
20141022 09:18:54 <gouessej> Ok, I have found no reference to them in nativewindow anyway
20141022 09:19:16 <gouessej> Java 3D 1.6.0 should work with Apple Java 1.6 then
20141022 09:19:38 <sgothel> AppContextInfo Win32SunJDKReflection X11SunJDKReflection JAWTUtil: utilizes sun.awt.* .. hmm
20141022 09:19:52 <sgothel> grep -RI "sun.awt" jogl/src/nativewindow/classes
20141022 09:20:21 <gouessej> AppContextInfo can be used under Mac
20141022 09:20:24 <gouessej> :s
20141022 09:20:33 <gouessej> JAWTUtil too
20141022 09:20:37 <sgothel> now we would need to validate how we behave if not existing, since we load them via reflection only
20141022 09:21:07 <sgothel> JAWTUtil: sun.awt.SunToolkit
20141022 09:21:17 <sgothel> (but not required)
20141022 09:23:09 <gouessej> :s I don't know whether I should advise the use of Apple Java with Java 3D then
20141022 09:23:31 <sgothel> you b/c Oracle ships old Java3D + JOGL still ?
20141022 09:23:35 <sgothel> *you mean*
20141022 09:24:43 <gouessej> Oracle doesn't
20141022 09:24:45 <gouessej> Apple does
20141022 09:24:57 <gouessej> Apple ships Java 3D 1.3.1
20141022 09:25:06 <gouessej> it uses apple.awt.* classes
20141022 09:25:07 <sgothel> ah - so why not simply use Oracle's Java w/ JOGL + Java3D ?
20141022 09:25:49 <sgothel> due to security issues, Apple's impl. may not be good anyways
20141022 09:25:56 <sgothel> (i.e. not updated)
20141022 09:26:03 <gouessej> yes that's what I wrote
20141022 09:26:19 <gouessej> http://gouessej.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/java-3d-est-de-retour-java-3d-is-back/#java
20141022 09:26:24 <sgothel> then all is good I guess ..
20141022 09:26:40 <gouessej> I wrote it's deprecated
20141022 09:26:45 <sgothel> maybe you can add a wiki entry for Java3d ? Didn't Harvey already start this ?
20141022 09:27:02 <gouessej> there is already a whole wiki section for Java 3D
20141022 09:27:13 <gouessej> a FAQ
20141022 09:27:15 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/wiki/index.php/Java3D_Overview
20141022 09:27:36 <sgothel> yup, just checked :)
20141022 09:27:51 <gouessej> overview, tutorials and FAQ
20141022 09:28:03 <sgothel> maybe this info should be there as well, you can also link you blog additionally ofc
20141022 09:28:29 <gouessej> I can put it into the FAQ
20141022 09:28:32 <sgothel> using the 7z file ofc :)
20141022 09:28:39 <sgothel> instead of the many jar files :)
20141022 09:28:49 <gouessej> the overviews are always kept as minimal as possible in "related projects"
20141022 09:29:03 <gouessej> I updated my tutorial yesterday
20141022 09:29:12 <sgothel> I guess an 'Installation' section should be added
20141022 09:29:16 <sgothel> (in our wiki)
20141022 09:29:30 <sgothel> copy / paste part of JOGL .. maybe
20141022 09:30:01 <sgothel> Use the option « -classpath » ou « -cp »
20141022 09:30:12 <sgothel> Right clic on the project and go to
20141022 09:30:20 <sgothel> ^^ typos ..
20141022 09:30:26 <gouessej> I've just updated the download link
20141022 09:31:00 <gouessej> Actually, then, it would lead to copy/paste what I already wrote
20141022 09:31:08 <sgothel> sure
20141022 09:31:24 <gouessej> I already talk about that in details in my tutorial
20141022 09:32:15 <sgothel> You can copy/paste and add a link to your original post. Benefit in our wiki is, that we (you and Harvey) can adapt the text.
20141022 09:32:49 <sgothel> Minimum: Add Installation section in wiki w/ link to your blog
20141022 09:33:29 <gouessej> As you wish but should I go into details as much as I did in the blog??
20141022 09:33:40 <sgothel> your choice ofc
20141022 09:33:44 <gouessej> Java 3D is a nightmare under Mac OS X
20141022 09:34:10 <sgothel> .. as visible by the many forum posts :)
20141022 09:34:29 <sgothel> so next time, maybe a link to wiki/blog would be sufficient :)
20141022 09:34:31 <gouessej> Moreover, there is already a question about how to install Java 3D in the FAQ.
20141022 09:34:52 <sgothel> which is ofc hidden, i.e. INSTALL should be a top entry
20141022 09:35:01 <gouessej> Good point
20141022 09:35:07 <sgothel> Downloading and installing
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20141022 09:37:34 <gouessej> I suggest to avoid duplicating too much things especially. I am creating the webpage "Downloading and installing"
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20141022 10:01:48 <gouessej> sgothel: Are you happy with that? https://jogamp.org/wiki/index.php/Downloading_and_installing_Java3D
20141022 10:02:39 <gouessej> sgothel: it is homogeneous with other pages, same wording
20141022 10:02:44 <sgothel> we would need a stable sym-link then
20141022 10:03:04 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/wiki/index.php/Downloading_and_installing_JOGL uses http://jogamp.org/deployment/jogamp-current/archive/
20141022 10:03:26 <sgothel> so, maybe https://jogamp.org/deployment/java3d/current/
20141022 10:03:27 <sgothel> ?
20141022 10:03:33 <gouessej> yes
20141022 10:03:41 <gouessej> it would be better
20141022 10:03:56 <sgothel> otherwise: great - thank you!
20141022 10:04:26 <gouessej> You're welcome. If I add more things, I will have to modify other pages to keep something consistent
20141022 10:04:42 <gouessej> Nothing talks about conflicts with JOGL 1 in the wiki
20141022 10:04:48 <sgothel> Yeah, you and Harvey shall deal w/ it :)
20141022 10:05:41 <sgothel> (personally I prefer dropping all stuff on jogamp (wiki, or even a static html page) .. but it is your choice)
20141022 10:06:13 <sgothel> a static html page (like HowTOBuild for JOGL) has the benefit that the user has it local when pulling source
20141022 10:06:33 <sgothel> then Wade created a wiki entry for it - redundancy .. well :)
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20141022 10:08:38 <gouessej> There is no translation in the wiki, manipulating images seems ... compromised. There is a huge part of the tutorial which deals with the conflicts, the extension mechanism, /lib/ext, ... If I put it into the wiki, I will have to do something similar for JOGL itself
20141022 10:09:18 <gouessej> and the (future) tutorial for Ardor3D is huge
20141022 10:09:31 <gouessej> more than 40 examples
20141022 10:09:33 <sgothel> yup, seems like a whole OSX+Apple_Java section would be needed
20141022 10:09:57 <sgothel> (A general OSX+Apple_Java section - dealing w/ all the odds)
20141022 10:10:08 <gouessej> you can sum up in a single sentence: put Apple Java into the trashbin :)
20141022 10:10:13 <sgothel> :)
20141022 10:10:44 <sgothel> The only use case seems to be the 32bit support as described in Bug 1050
20141022 10:10:46 <gouessej> Actually, I already put some stuff into the user guide
20141022 10:10:54 <gouessej> the "bad practice"
20141022 10:10:57 <gouessej> section
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20141022 10:11:34 <sgothel> all good, your choice .. maybe one additional link to the blog section dealing w/ these cases to highlight it
20141022 10:12:01 <sgothel> and then you and Harvey 'fight it out' ..
20141022 10:12:18 <gouessej> Ok, I can do that after eating a bit
20141022 10:12:25 <sgothel> for JOGL, there are no real collisions, since we always load our jar files 1st
20141022 10:13:02 <gouessej> Actually, if JOGL 1 is installed as an extension, there is a risk of collision
20141022 10:13:33 <sgothel> depends what you call 1st, right .. avoided by GLProfile.initSingleton()
20141022 10:14:08 <sgothel> that gives me one idea .. here ..
20141022 10:14:21 <gouessej> I think about the classloaders. Java loads itself, then it loads its extensions (endorsed or not) and then it loads your JAR(s)
20141022 10:14:38 <sgothel> how about adding a Java3D.initSingleton() thingy .. and only initialize the class if method found ?
20141022 10:14:45 <sgothel> understood
20141022 10:15:03 <sgothel> IMHO the remaining classes should be loaded by the same jar files
20141022 10:15:14 <sgothel> but not too sure about it
20141022 10:15:30 <sgothel> Class.forName( .. init=false )
20141022 10:16:24 <sgothel> ah .. to complicated and lack of confidence
20141022 10:16:32 <gouessej> I already had some troubles with other scenegraphs too, when GLCanvas was moved to the awt subpackage
20141022 10:17:39 <gouessej> Some developers who updated Ardor3D realized that it was using a version of JOGL 1 stored somewhere :s
20141022 10:18:16 <gouessej> somewhere near Java 3D
20141022 10:18:41 <gouessej> http://i.imgur.com/GFWymCv.png?1
20141022 10:19:00 <sgothel> yup, dunno if above reflection could solve the issue .. probably to expensive in work hours
20141022 10:22:57 <gouessej> Skipping the extensions is better :)
20141022 10:23:09 <gouessej> or shipping its own JVM
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20141022 13:10:02 <gouessej> sgothel: How should I name the new quirk? (see bug 1038)
20141022 13:11:03 <gouessej> sgothel: we have to disable the context creation with ARB for this driver
20141022 13:14:09 <gouessej> sgothel: SkipARBCreateContext?
20141022 13:39:05 <sgothel> NoARBCreateContext: No reliable ARB_create_context implementation ...
20141022 13:39:40 <gouessej> ok
20141022 13:39:44 <gouessej> thanks
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20141022 14:09:29 <gouessej> Notepad messed up the alignment: https://github.com/gouessej/jogl/commit/a8f26c0400bdf2749ca8fd1795fa40aa34f510b4
20141022 14:11:09 <sgothel> 'Notepad' ? I use vim or eclipse .. hmm 4 spaces in general, no tabs
20141022 14:11:21 <sgothel> pls fix
20141022 14:11:50 <sgothel> > glRenderer.equals("ATI Radeon 3100 Graphics") && glVersion != null && glVersion.equals("2.1.8787")
20141022 14:12:04 <sgothel> ^^ the only occurrence ?
20141022 14:12:27 <gouessej> fixed
20141022 14:13:22 <gouessej> The problem is that the bug is reproducible on 2.1.8787 for sure but there is guarantee on 3.1.8787 BETA
20141022 14:13:33 <gouessej> no guarantee
20141022 14:13:54 <sgothel> is this a driver issue or a drive+gpu issue ?
20141022 14:13:55 <gouessej> I wait for a confirmation
20141022 14:14:26 <sgothel> i.e. gpu path of certain driver versions .. or just the driver version
20141022 14:15:08 <sgothel> AFAIK we use VersionNumber comparison instead of string comparison, as well as for the 'vendor version' within the version string
20141022 14:15:13 <gouessej> In my humble opinion, the exact same code breaks but the guy probably used two different machines when testing the application and running the applet
20141022 14:15:47 <gouessej> ok I can improve the fix
20141022 14:15:52 <gouessej> I see what you mean
20141022 14:15:57 <sgothel> in short: does it matter 'ATI Radeon 3100 Graphics' ?
20141022 14:16:06 <sgothel> which driver version is this: 8787 ?
20141022 14:16:13 <gouessej> Yes it matters
20141022 14:16:20 <sgothel> i.e. 8787 should be the vendor version ..
20141022 14:16:39 <sgothel> ah, OK, so a GPU path of a range of driver versions ..
20141022 14:16:47 <gouessej> yes
20141022 14:17:04 <sgothel> so we would need to know both ranges (GPU, driver) .. :)
20141022 14:17:08 <gouessej> the driver used with the applet is a driver in beta :s
20141022 14:17:24 <sgothel> driver is OK, like <= dirtyVersion
20141022 14:18:02 <sgothel> oh, so an upcoming driver ? hmm
20141022 14:18:28 <gouessej> The drivers for this hardware are unmaintained since maybe 2009
20141022 14:19:23 <sgothel> ah .. good, so a simple <= dirtyVersion .. and probably the highest unmaintained hardware number would suffices
20141022 14:19:51 <sgothel> maybe simply reduce to driver version then, if it is 5 years old - for crying out loud :)
20141022 14:19:52 <gouessej> I still wait for the confirmation for the beta driver
20141022 14:20:19 <gouessej> "simple <= dirtyVersion" I can do it
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20141022 14:20:50 <gouessej> In the worst case, we'll increase it later if necessary
20141022 14:20:54 <gouessej> not a big deal
20141022 14:20:56 <sgothel> ok
20141022 14:21:32 <sgothel> vendorVersion should be 8787 here then .. hmm
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20141022 14:25:13 <gouessej> sgothel: I'm not sure 2.1.8787 matches with the vendor version
20141022 14:25:23 <gouessej> it is GL_VERSION
20141022 14:25:32 <sgothel> hmm
20141022 14:26:18 <sgothel> what the full GL_VERSION string ?
20141022 14:26:53 <sgothel> GLVersionNumber.createVendorVersion(..): 4.2.12198 Compatibility Profile Context 12.102.3.0 -> 12.102.3 (12.102.3.0)
20141022 14:27:00 <gouessej> 2.1.8787 and 3.1.8787 BETA
20141022 14:27:12 <sgothel> oh .. so nothing in the end ..
20141022 14:27:27 <sgothel> yup, old driver then - they didn't have it .. :(
20141022 14:28:00 <sgothel> do vendorVersion is VersionNumberString.zeroVersion and subminor counts then
20141022 14:28:18 <sgothel> *so*
20141022 14:28:31 <sgothel> 8787 <- subminor
20141022 14:30:13 <gouessej> How do I get the subminor?
20141022 14:30:28 <sgothel> .. was just looking :)
20141022 14:30:34 <gouessej> ok
20141022 14:30:44 <sgothel> yup, we issue setContextVersion(..) after getting the quirks :-/
20141022 14:32:09 <sgothel> VersionNumber v = new VersionNumber(glVersion);
20141022 14:32:13 <sgothel> b.getSub();
20141022 14:32:20 <gouessej> ok :s
20141022 14:32:24 <sgothel> v.getSub(); // duh .. sticky keyboard
20141022 14:32:49 <gouessej> setContextVersion(major, minor, ctxProfileBits, vendorVersion, true);
20141022 14:36:15 <sgothel> nana .. we need to do that later .. i.e. using quirks beforehand
20141022 14:36:43 <sgothel> and only do that (new VersionNumber(glVersion); ) in setting quirks when needed ..
20141022 14:38:06 <gouessej> ok
20141022 14:38:33 <gouessej> I try to check if I can use vendorVersion to get this information
20141022 14:42:31 <gouessej> ok I'm silly vendorVersion.getSub() = 8787
20141022 14:42:38 <gouessej> thank you
20141022 14:44:31 <sgothel> we pass 'vendorVersion' to the quirks method generated via GLVersionNumber.createVendorVersion(..). Look at it's code - it probably produces VersionNumberString.zeroVersion
20141022 14:44:56 <sgothel> (vendor version is _after_ the GL version + some text, i.e. the last version number at string end)
20141022 14:45:17 <sgothel> so here .. you need to use the glVersion.getSub() (parsed via VersionNumber)
20141022 14:46:10 <sgothel> so you can have a query: isWindows && isAMD && vendorVersion.compareTo(VersionNumberString.zeroVersion) == 0 && glVersionNumber.getSub() <= 8787
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20141022 14:47:09 <gouessej> Actually, the code of GLVersionNumber.createVendorVersion should create 2 1 8787
20141022 14:48:02 <gouessej> it uses the default number pattern
20141022 14:48:24 <gouessej> with "." as a delimiter
20141022 14:49:29 <gouessej> 2.1.8787 should be parsed correctly
20141022 14:49:49 <gouessej> vendorVersion should be correct and passed to setRendererQuirks, I was wrong
20141022 14:51:07 <gouessej> :s oops you're right, it takes the last string
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20141022 15:16:54 <gouessej> sgothel: Does it seem to be correct? glRenderer.equals("ATI Radeon 3100 Graphics") && vendorVersion.compareTo(VersionNumberString.zeroVersion) == 0 && glVersionNumber.compareTo(amdUnsafeARBCreateContextVersion) <= 0
20141022 15:18:08 <sgothel> isDriverATICatalyst <- enough ?
20141022 15:18:56 <sgothel> i.e. isWindows && isDriverATICatalyst
20141022 15:19:11 <sgothel> && vendorVersion.compareTo(VersionNumberString.zeroVersion) == 0 && glVersionNumber.compareTo(amdUnsafeARBCreateContextVersion) <= 0
20141022 15:19:25 <sgothel> the details of glRenderer .. well, we have to think about that ..
20141022 15:19:41 <sgothel> kitchen duty now .. AFK for a while
20141022 15:20:33 <gouessej> I use isDriverATICatalyst too
20141022 15:20:38 <gouessej> isWindows too
20141022 15:21:12 <gouessej> I have never seen a similar crash with other ATI graphics cards
20141022 15:21:17 <gouessej> of this time
20141022 15:21:46 <sgothel> ok .. and we can expand it later .. (now really AFK :)
20141022 15:21:57 <gouessej> yes, exactly
20141022 15:22:08 <gouessej> no, not now
20141022 15:22:30 <gouessej> I don't want to set an excessively broad quirk
20141022 15:22:58 <gouessej> that's why I would like to get some feedback on another machine
20141022 15:23:49 <gouessej> Maybe I can find a similar graphics card
20141022 15:29:18 <gouessej> I will be able to test on an ATI Radeon 4350
20141022 15:30:11 <zubzub> I have an ati radeon 4870
20141022 15:30:14 <zubzub> on windows 7
20141022 15:30:36 <gouessej> Can you tell me which value you have for GL_VERSION
20141022 15:30:37 <gouessej> ?
20141022 15:30:39 <gouessej> please
20141022 15:30:47 <zubzub> I will once I am home
20141022 15:30:52 <zubzub> and behind that computer :)
20141022 15:30:55 <gouessej> Thanks
20141022 15:31:15 <zubzub> that's either today after 21h gmt+2
20141022 15:31:22 <zubzub> or tomorrow after 20h
20141022 15:33:13 <gouessej> Have you ever run JOGL 2 on this machine?
20141022 15:33:21 <zubzub> yes
20141022 15:33:26 <zubzub> it works without probs
20141022 15:33:31 <zubzub> with it was a GL2ES2
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20141022 15:34:20 <zubzub> and a fairly simple demo app I wrote myself
20141022 15:34:45 <gouessej> ok
20141022 15:34:47 <gouessej> thanks
20141022 15:34:56 <zubzub> basically this: https://open.gl/introduction
20141022 15:35:03 <zubzub> but I adapated it to work for gl2es2
20141022 15:35:03 <gouessej> Even the most simple crap crashed in my case
20141022 15:36:39 <gouessej> Some other people complained of crash with the same graphics card GL_VERSION 2.1.8304 Release
20141022 15:37:15 <zubzub> I'll let you know as soon as I'm behind the machine :)
20141022 15:38:58 <gouessej> ;) Thanks
20141022 15:46:22 <gouessej> zubzub: You should see something like 2.1.8781 if you updated your driver under Windows 7
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20141022 23:33:34 <phao> Hey...
20141022 23:33:50 <phao> What is a good book to learn basics of computer graphics and also opengl?
20141022 23:34:05 <phao> On the same book would be better, but I'd not mind taking separate ones.
20141022 23:34:18 <phao> http://www.amazon.com/Interactive-Computer-Graphics-Top-Down-Shader-Based/dp/0132545233/
20141022 23:34:31 <phao> I started reading this one once, but I was wondering if there were better ones.
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20141023 05:06:24 -jogamp- Continue @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20141023050624.html