#jogamp @ irc.freenode.net - 20141113 05:06:28 (UTC)

20141113 05:06:28 -jogamp- Previous @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20141112050627.html
20141113 05:06:28 -jogamp- This channel is logged @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20141113050628.html
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20141113 07:39:56 <eclesia> good morning
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20141113 10:48:09 <monsieur_max> ah, just received my mac mini, ready to test my game on it
20141113 10:48:15 <monsieur_max> a whole new world for me
20141113 10:48:43 <monsieur_max> will openAl works ? ffmpeg ? and xbox gamepad ? so much mysteries
20141113 10:49:26 <xranby> openAl works yes we think it will (openal-soft is compiled for OSX)
20141113 10:50:00 <xranby> ffmpeg may work if you have installed libav or ffmpeg on your system
20141113 10:50:38 <monsieur_max> i'm using a thingie called soundSystem ( with a JOAL plugin ) that falls back to java sound if openAL is not working
20141113 10:50:47 <monsieur_max> xranby: pretty much like on linux then
20141113 10:51:02 <xranby> xbox gamepad, <- jinput may handle it
20141113 10:51:09 <xranby> but you will need a 64bit compiled jni lib
20141113 10:52:17 <monsieur_max> yes, jinput is what i used, i'll have to investigate the native part, as you said
20141113 10:54:03 <monsieur_max> having a dedicated mode for xbox pad gives a great feeling to the game, quite satisfied with it right now
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20141113 13:28:12 <gouessej> Hi
20141113 13:28:31 <gouessej> monsieur_max: Do you use Paul Lamb Sound System?
20141113 13:28:56 <monsieur_max> gouessej: IIRC, yes, it's his
20141113 13:29:20 <gouessej> I dropped its JavaSound plugin several months ago as the JOAL plugin just works
20141113 13:29:27 <monsieur_max> any thought on it ?
20141113 13:29:38 <gouessej> I'm really happy with it
20141113 13:29:44 <monsieur_max> yeah, i use the joal plugin but fall back to java sound if no joal is to be found
20141113 13:30:06 <monsieur_max> to be honest , i choose it for this very reason
20141113 13:30:17 <gouessej> I removed the fallback as I didn't want to keep a dependency on JavaSound
20141113 13:30:39 <gouessej> JavaSound doesn't work very well accross platforms and is quite buggy
20141113 13:31:04 <gouessej> OpenAL-Soft works better
20141113 13:31:21 <gouessej> Using 2 plugins means that you have indeed 2 fallbacks :s
20141113 13:31:26 <gouessej> a bit too much for me
20141113 13:31:57 <gouessej> OpenAL (hardware) or OpenAL-Soft
20141113 13:32:55 <gouessej> jvanek: I use this instead of Java Webstart: http://svn.code.sf.net/p/tuer/code/pre_beta/jndt.xml
20141113 13:32:58 <gouessej> :)
20141113 13:33:01 <monsieur_max> ... i'll investigate openAl Soft, i don't know what it is ( even if the name makes things pretty clear though )
20141113 13:33:08 <gouessej> You have nothing to do
20141113 13:33:19 <gouessej> the binaries are already in the JARs
20141113 13:33:37 <rmk0> meant to ask... how up-to-date is the openAL soft included in jogamp?
20141113 13:34:06 <gouessej> good question... Xerxes knows that probably better than me
20141113 13:35:04 <gouessej> rmk0: https://github.com/sgothel/joal/commit/0ad86c6c50a10bb3a53cac6fff1b857bae9c6192
20141113 13:37:55 <gouessej> monsieur_max: Actually, you're probably using it without knowing it
20141113 13:38:59 <monsieur_max> gouessej: yeah, that's what i was starting to think :)
20141113 13:39:24 <gouessej> On some platforms, OpenAL-Soft is used in priority
20141113 13:40:01 <gouessej> It's a fallback on others
20141113 13:40:48 * rmk0 eyes it
20141113 13:41:28 <gouessej> rmk0: Actually, we don't benefit of all changes done since June 11 in OpenAL-Soft :s
20141113 13:42:22 <gouessej> rmk0: This one seems to be interesting: https://github.com/mirror/openal-soft/commit/283c2b20d4602e098ee991f90209696696bd8163
20141113 13:42:33 <gouessej> "Add a toolchain for Android cross-compiling "
20141113 14:34:57 <darkfrog> gouessej: I'd be interested in using the jogl binding for libgdx, but you guys really need to update it and start publishing it to Maven
20141113 14:37:55 <gouessej> darkfrog: When do you need it?
20141113 14:39:01 <gouessej> We could put it into JogAmp Maven repository but not on Maven Central, it's not officially supported by LibGDX
20141113 14:39:07 <darkfrog> well, I'm using the LWJGL implementation right now so it's not an immediate rush, but I'd prefer to use JOGL....although I have noticed that a lot of the examples that used JOGL crash on my media center machine saying that GL2 isn't available but the LWJGL implementation works fine.
20141113 14:39:29 <darkfrog> why does jogamp have a repository instead of sharing with central?
20141113 14:39:45 <darkfrog> it's pretty trivial to get access to central...I do it for several of my projects
20141113 14:40:00 <gouessej> It's not what I meant, some JogAmp things are on Maven Central
20141113 14:40:39 <darkfrog> why not rename the dependency path and then share it on central...I understand why you can't push it on the com.badlogicgame.libgdx namespace
20141113 14:40:57 <gouessej> it would be confusing
20141113 14:40:58 <darkfrog> why not pushing it under jogamp.libgdx or something
20141113 14:41:09 <gouessej> It mustn't be seen as a fork
20141113 14:41:14 <rmk0> darkfrog: the jogamp repository is just for prerelease stuff at the moment
20141113 14:41:17 <darkfrog> more confusing than doing a search on central and there being nothing there?
20141113 14:41:42 <gouessej> "It's convenient" is not always a good argument
20141113 14:42:19 <darkfrog> gouessej: true, but confusing and easy are a pair
20141113 14:42:30 <gouessej> Using a separate repository just requires a few lines in your pom file
20141113 14:42:43 <darkfrog> I know
20141113 14:43:08 <gouessej> I have nothing against Maven
20141113 14:44:18 <gouessej> "a lot of the examples that used JOGL crash on my media center machine saying that GL2 isn't available"???
20141113 14:44:42 <gouessej> If you use examples based on GL2 on a machine that doesn't support GL2, we can do nothing for you
20141113 14:44:59 <gouessej> Does this machine only support OpenGL-ES?
20141113 14:46:02 <gouessej> JOGL is by far the most reliable Java binding for OpenGL and OpenGL-ES. Some examples are based on the fixed pipeline. If they were written to support a broader subset of OpenGL, they would work better
20141113 14:46:20 <gouessej> It has nothing to do with "***** works fine"
20141113 14:47:08 <gouessej> I can find some graphics chips that just crash when you run the other library you talked about
20141113 14:47:37 <gouessej> but if you're happy with those real crashes, stick with another backend
20141113 14:47:46 <gouessej> crash != exception
20141113 14:49:12 <gouessej> Maybe your media center only supports OpenGL core whereas the examples require OpenGL backward compatible profile or vice versa
20141113 14:49:20 <gouessej> It can happen in plan OpenGL
20141113 14:49:30 <gouessej> plain OpenGL in C
20141113 14:56:51 <rmk0> the problem can occur because LWJGL doesn't use explicit profiles
20141113 14:57:16 <rmk0> in LWJGL, you can write an opengl program without ever actually explicitly specifying what range of versions the program works on
20141113 14:57:26 <rmk0> if you're lucky, you can end up with a program that works on 2.1-3.*
20141113 14:57:46 <rmk0> if you take the same program and put it on JOGL, but then ask for a GL2 or GL3 profile that's not available... you'll get an error
20141113 14:58:06 <rmk0> it's likely that the LWJGL examples didn't ask for anything specific, and therefore didn't get anything specific, and luckily worked anyway
20141113 15:07:50 <gouessej> I don't want to rely on luck
20141113 15:16:01 <rmk0> nope
20141113 15:17:05 <rmk0> is the same issue that plagues opengl programs written in C
20141113 15:19:04 <zubzub> 15:56 < rmk0> the problem can occur because LWJGL doesn't use explicit profiles
20141113 15:19:04 <zubzub> 15:57 < rmk0> in LWJGL, you can write an opengl program without ever actually explicitly specifying what range of versions the program works on
20141113 15:19:07 <zubzub> wait
20141113 15:19:10 <zubzub> what
20141113 15:19:17 <zubzub> how can that ever work?!
20141113 15:19:42 <rmk0> same way it works poorly in C
20141113 15:20:02 <rmk0> you get access to all of the function entrypoints, roughly divided up by the version of opengl they first appeared in
20141113 15:20:20 <rmk0> it's up to you not to call a function that was defined outside of the version the context is using
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20141113 18:52:10 <gouessej> I'm happy, some people have downloaded my packages, it was worth the effort :)
20141113 18:52:58 <rmk0> gouessej: how can you tell?
20141113 18:53:29 <gouessej> http://sourceforge.net/projects/tuer/files/tuer/tuer-0.0.0/
20141113 18:53:52 <rmk0> hehe
20141113 18:54:15 <rmk0> i like the optimistic version number as well
20141113 18:54:25 <gouessej> Usually, I have only 1 or 2 downloads per week. Now, it's closer to 4 per day
20141113 18:54:30 <gouessej> lol
20141113 18:58:16 <gouessej> I haven't tested the Debian packages
20141113 18:58:35 <gouessej> If someone could do it for me, it would be fine
20141113 19:00:14 <rmk0> not got any debian machines left here
20141113 19:00:18 <rmk0> otherwise i would
20141113 19:00:32 <rmk0> ...
20141113 19:00:34 * rmk0 prods jk4
20141113 19:02:52 <gouessej> ok
20141113 19:02:57 <gouessej> jk4?
20141113 19:03:25 <rmk0> friend of mine that's been lurking in here for ages
20141113 19:03:29 * rmk0 kicks jk4
20141113 19:03:34 <rmk0> he may have debian
20141113 19:03:38 <rmk0> he may not!
20141113 19:03:51 <gouessej> ok thank you very much
20141113 19:18:27 <gouessej> hharrison: My tool is ready, maybe you could give it a try when you have some time
20141113 19:18:42 <gouessej> As Jaamsim is under GPL, there is no licensing trouble
20141113 19:19:01 <hharrison> sorry, forgetful...which tool?
20141113 19:19:22 <gouessej> JNDT, I use it to create my packages
20141113 19:19:29 <gouessej> RPM, DEB, APP, ...
20141113 19:19:41 <gouessej> I still have to support MSI for Windows
20141113 19:20:17 <gouessej> http://sourceforge.net/p/tuer/code/HEAD/tree/pre_beta/jndt.xml
20141113 19:21:43 <gouessej> I think that I have to use better default names for the archives
20141113 19:23:48 <gouessej> hharrison: You have the same problem than TUER in your fat JAR
20141113 19:24:06 <gouessej> getImplementation...() returns null in our case
20141113 19:25:47 <gouessej> https://github.com/sgothel/gluegen/blob/master/src/java/com/jogamp/common/util/JogampVersion.java#L163
20141113 19:26:39 <hharrison> Oh, I suppose it would as I don't copy the manifest
20141113 19:26:44 <gouessej> GlueGen looks for something in the manifest
20141113 19:27:00 <gouessej> I can fix it in TUER, it's easy
20141113 19:27:29 <hharrison> What is the problem exactly...what breaks?
20141113 19:27:31 <gouessej> I unzip the manifest, I keep only a few lines and I use it for the fat JAR
20141113 19:27:52 <gouessej> When I try to know which version of JOGL is installed, it returns null
20141113 19:27:53 <hharrison> (I feel like I've completely forgotten some conversation)
20141113 19:28:17 <gouessej> JoglVersion.getInstance.getImplementationVersion() returns null
20141113 19:28:23 <gouessej> in our case
20141113 19:32:39 <gouessej> hharrison: What do you use to create your Windows executable? I see nothing about that in your Ant script
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20141113 20:46:53 <hharrison> gouessej: exe4j
20141113 20:47:24 <gouessej> hharrison: proprietary :(
20141113 20:48:34 <gouessej> hharrison: Thank you for this information. I'll need some time to support MSI files
20141113 20:49:01 <hharrison> Yes, but you can get a free version for open source products, FYI
20141113 20:49:23 <hharrison> But there's a reason the ant scripts only spit out jars
20141113 20:50:00 <hharrison> As that's one anyone can build themselves with only a JDK
20141113 20:50:56 <gouessej> Ok and you use only plain Ant
20141113 20:51:43 <hharrison> I have a local patch to the ant files that calls exe4j, but I only distribute stuff in the repo that people can actually build
20141113 20:51:55 <gouessej> It's reasonable
20141113 20:52:07 <gouessej> I understand your position, I do the same
20141113 20:53:09 <gouessej> Would you be interested in improving the packaging for GNU Linux and Mac anyway?
20141113 20:54:38 <hharrison> It's not a huge motivation for me, everyone I've talked to has bee happy with the jar file
20141113 20:54:45 <hharrison> on OSX and linux
20141113 20:55:29 <hharrison> If I start to get support requests/people having difficulty, I'll be more motivated to improve the situation
20141113 20:55:59 <hharrison> What do you see as a shortcoming of the fat-jar approach in those case?
20141113 20:56:29 <gouessej> the default archiver can open the JAR
20141113 20:56:40 <gouessej> there is no native inegration, no item in the start menu
20141113 20:56:53 <gouessej> you don't control which JRE is used
20141113 20:57:21 <gouessej> a non technical end user will just give up if he fails to run your application
20141113 20:57:39 <gouessej> that's why I don't provide a fat JAR alone as is
20141113 20:57:39 <hharrison> I guess dealing with simulation people....java -jar and a command line is what they _want_ to use
20141113 20:58:01 <gouessej> you don't want to deal with Apple JRE, do you?
20141113 20:58:16 <hharrison> It hasn't been a problem (yet?)
20141113 20:59:09 <gouessej> it's obsolete, it's half broken, it can cause conflict with JOGL because it comes with an obsolete version of JOGL
20141113 21:00:19 <gouessej> Some people install it in Yosemite just to avoid some nasty warnings when going to a webpage with an applet
20141113 21:00:29 <gouessej> even though Oracle Java is used
20141113 21:01:49 <gouessej> There is another bigger problem
20141113 21:02:13 <gouessej> When you use a fat JAR, you can't pass any option to the JVM
20141113 21:02:38 <gouessej> If there isn't enough memory, you have to indicate to your end users to modify some parameters or to use a script
20141113 21:03:06 <gouessej> or you can create a JVM that creates another JVM with the right VM parameters and options :s
20141113 21:03:31 <gouessej> It is the biggest bottleneck for my game
20141113 21:03:57 <gouessej> You can run out of memory on the native heap for example
20141113 21:04:35 <gouessej> There is no such problem with JNDT as you can pass some VM arguments and options
20141113 21:04:43 <gouessej> The end user just clicks and it runs
20141113 21:07:31 <gouessej> If Jaamsim works always perfectly with the default values, using a fat JAR is a good option
20141113 21:08:03 <gouessej> JNDT takes a fat JAR in input
20141113 21:08:49 <gouessej> Using it isn't very risky especially under Mac, it follows a particular layout so that OS X recognizes the archive as an application bundle
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20141113 22:01:24 <hharrison> I guess it's just a different class of user we deal with, most of my users are perfectly happy to literally type java -jar Jaamsim.jar on the command line
20141113 22:02:05 <hharrison> With the 64-bit VMs, the defaults are generous enough that we don't run in to many problems
20141113 22:02:41 <hharrison> Then they package up a .sh for themselves and everything is happy (windows users generally need the exe with packaged VM options)
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20141114 05:06:28 -jogamp- Continue @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20141114050628.html