JogAmp IRC Chat Logs

#jogamp @ irc.freenode.net - 20150927 21:05:14 (UTC)

20150927 21:05:14 -jogamp- Previous @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20150927050512.html
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20150927 21:05:20 * jogamp (~jogamp@anon) has joined #jogamp
20150927 21:05:20 * Topic is 'http://jogamp.org | Hacking 3D Graphics, Multimedia and Processing across Devices | logs: http://jogamp.org/log/irc/?C=M;O=D'
20150927 21:05:20 * Set by rmk0 on 20141110 16:19:10
20150927 21:05:20 -NickServ- You are now identified for jogamp.
20150928 01:38:44 * bigpet (uid25664@anon) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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20150928 04:32:20 <sgothel> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd_nROgQfPQ (german rap .. for your good morning coffee :)
20150928 04:35:57 <sgothel> 'sklavenlohnsektor' I love it .. (slave wage range)
20150928 07:17:02 * monsieur_max (~maxime@anon) has joined #jogamp
20150928 07:24:44 * eclesia (~husky@anon) has joined #jogamp
20150928 07:24:54 <eclesia> good morning
20150928 07:35:13 <zubzub> xranby: is it correct to state that avian is a gcj 'fork' that evolved into it's "own" project?
20150928 08:32:16 <zubzub> https://blogs.oracle.com/jrose/entry/the_isthmus_in_the_vm
20150928 08:32:18 <zubzub> interesting read
20150928 08:50:07 <xranby> hmm no avian is avian Joel Dice did maintain micro-libgcj hoever avian is not based on micro-libgcj http://sourceforge.net/p/ulibgcj/discussion/527098/thread/b7690974/
20150928 08:50:52 <xranby> "I've been working on a new project with similar goals to micro-libgcj, called Avian. "
20150928 08:51:11 <xranby> zubzub: ^
20150928 08:53:07 <zubzub> yeah that's why I assumed it
20150928 08:56:24 <guillaum1> hi all
20150928 08:57:06 <xranby> guillaum1: hi!
20150928 08:57:22 <xranby> guillaum1: XMLvm how good does it work as a transpiler?
20150928 08:57:45 <xranby> http://xmlvm.org/overview/
20150928 08:58:33 <xranby> "You can even cross compile an Android application to run on the iPhone"
20150928 08:59:01 <xranby> http://xmlvm.org/android/
20150928 08:59:16 <xranby> i am qurious if this can be used without xcode
20150928 08:59:39 <guillaum1> xranby: hi. Works well. Maybe the most known. It requires Boehm-gc on the target platform.
20150928 09:02:26 <xranby> guillaum1: so wow, xmlvm opens a door to cross compile bytecode to ios without using apples tools?
20150928 09:02:35 <guillaum1> xranby: You can't disabled pthread so it's an issue for some targets: bare-metal ARM with only newlib, Minix, ...
20150928 09:03:15 <guillaum1> xranby: you need Xcode at the end
20150928 09:03:36 <xranby> :/ always that xcode .. at the end
20150928 09:04:10 <guillaum1> xranby: yeah, sad :-(
20150928 09:04:46 <xranby> http://www.musl-libc.org/intro.html <- pthreads under 20k "the whole threads implementation weighs in at around 10-20k"
20150928 09:05:27 <xranby> i like the musl implementation to do a libc implementation without legacy bloat
20150928 09:07:52 <guillaum1> xranby: AFAIK, musl works on top of Linux: "musl is a libc, an implementation of the standard library functionality described in the ISO C and POSIX standards, plus common extensions, intended for use on Linux-based systems". I saw some partial ports to other OS.
20150928 09:08:41 <xranby> from jogamps point of view... musl may be a good way to make the jogamp natives work on all linux systems
20150928 09:09:02 <xranby> by removing the need to have the natives to be compatible with some versions og glibc
20150928 09:09:22 <xranby> the linux kernel interface is very much stable
20150928 09:09:31 <guillaum1> xranby: would be really great !
20150928 09:10:13 <xranby> at the moment we are only compatible with the last LTS releases
20150928 09:10:27 <xranby> due to how the glibc versioning works
20150928 09:10:37 <xranby> lib musl may solve that
20150928 09:14:29 * guillaum1 prefered Linux when it was a small OS starting on a floppy disk.
20150928 09:14:35 <guillaum1> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/22/linus_torvalds_linux_bloated_huge/
20150928 09:25:58 <guillaum1> xranby: do you think it could be interesting I provide a pure java OpenGL ES 1.0 renderer for Jogamp ?
20150928 09:26:02 <zubzub> still lots of OS'es out there that behave like linux when it could start from a floppy
20150928 09:27:51 <bruce-> none of my computers have a floppy drive
20150928 09:28:11 <guillaum1> xranby: It's a bit a toy but it can be useful for debugging / testing on platforms before native parts are ready
20150928 09:30:22 <guillaum1> zubzub, bruce-: I mean I regret time where Linux kernel was compact and simple. I'm still an happy Linux user (but not as developer)
20150928 09:39:07 <xranby> guillaum1: when you say a pute OpenGL ES 1.0 renderer to Jogamp then what are you refering to exactly? jogamp already binds to gles1
20150928 09:40:08 <guillaum1> xranby : I mean a _pure_ Java renderer (no native code)
20150928 09:41:00 <xranby> if it enable deployment on new platforms then yes
20150928 09:41:17 <xranby> using the same api towards the end user
20150928 09:41:23 <guillaum1> xranby: sure
20150928 09:41:34 <xranby> we can add a bugzilla entry for this work item
20150928 09:41:48 <xranby> maybe the same code may work for opengl es 2 systems
20150928 09:42:15 <xranby> i see it as a way to deploy to deeply embedded systems
20150928 09:42:21 <xranby> and game consoles
20150928 09:43:03 <guillaum1> xranby; yeah that's I did on the Wii before I lost the code :-(
20150928 09:43:24 <xranby> you årpved that it did work!
20150928 09:43:27 <xranby> proved
20150928 09:44:17 <xranby> there is a yoga proverb "if you want to go fast, go alone, if you want to go far then go together"
20150928 09:44:43 <zubzub> pure java? o_O
20150928 09:44:44 <eclesia> xranby: I am the exception to this proverb ^^
20150928 09:44:54 <zubzub> how is that possible without relying on 3rd party libs?
20150928 09:44:55 <guillaum1> xranby: it's really slow but it can't sufficient for a small game or 3D window toolkit
20150928 09:45:05 <zubzub> even the jdk is not pure java ;)
20150928 09:45:07 <guillaum1> *it can be
20150928 09:45:19 <xranby> i thought the jikes rvm was the fastest jvm and being pure java
20150928 09:45:28 <xranby> meta cyclic
20150928 09:45:58 <zubzub> sooner or later you're going to need something OS specic that you need to access from java
20150928 09:46:06 <zubzub> hence the need for native (jni) code
20150928 09:46:07 <guillaum1> rendering is done in memory. You just have to display the offscreen buffer to a real screen :-)
20150928 09:46:42 <xranby> zubzub: java is both the language and the jvm... if you write it in java it can be compiled to native code and run antively
20150928 09:47:17 <xranby> hence if you push the java language aspect it is still java and you run it on a deeply embedded platform
20150928 09:47:33 <guillaum1> xranby: So native part is: Graphics.draw(arbbByteBuffer, x, y, width, height)
20150928 09:47:49 <xranby> hmm
20150928 09:47:57 <xranby> i thought you still used hardware acceleration
20150928 09:48:11 <xranby> like the wii got hardware opengl es 1 compatible parts
20150928 09:48:11 <guillaum1> xranby: no
20150928 09:49:03 <xranby> but there is nothing really stopping us from using such hardware accelerated parts?
20150928 09:49:28 <xranby> as long as you have an ABI to use the hardware acceleration
20150928 09:49:42 <xranby> this ABI can be called from java
20150928 09:49:50 <xranby> even if the implementation is pure java
20150928 09:50:05 <guillaum1> xranby: I replaced the Wii software backend by the accelerated one when it was done. I didn't try to mix the two implementations
20150928 09:50:16 <xranby> java code -> transpiler -> native assebler or c
20150928 09:50:27 <xranby> -> binary -> run it
20150928 09:52:44 <guillaum1> xranby: yes, it already works
20150928 09:52:51 <xranby> \o/
20150928 09:55:30 <xranby> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1235 <- filed bugs for the musl enhancement
20150928 09:55:56 <xranby> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1236 <- since it will make jogamp work on old linux 2.6 systems such as the asus eeepc 900
20150928 09:58:44 <guillaum1> zubzub, xranby: an example of glue I wrote a few years ago between a pure Java rendered and a native screen: http://sourceforge.net/p/midpath/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/external/pjogles/test/org/thenesis/pjogles/test/Cube.java
20150928 10:00:55 <xranby> fun to see jalimo contributors such as wogline in the svn history :)
20150928 10:01:35 <xranby> all members of the large java community working on all projects
20150928 10:02:30 <xranby> pjogles is this the binding you demonstrated at fosdem 2008?
20150928 10:02:37 <guillaum1> xranby: yes
20150928 10:02:41 <xranby> cool
20150928 10:06:42 <guillaum1> Great moments between 2006 and 2009. We were close to have something like Android (on OpenMoko) but compliant with Sun specs. Too late and too slow to emerge :-(
20150928 10:07:10 <xranby> i remember this fosdem we did indeed have a good foundation having java running on arm.
20150928 10:07:16 <xranby> many people tried to liberate ios
20150928 10:07:54 <xranby> like you and jamvm author Robert Lougher demonstrated how to run java applications on this phone
20150928 10:08:14 <xranby> jalimo had great success, buglabs had grat sucess
20150928 10:08:33 <xranby> everyone complained about javase being slow on arm
20150928 10:08:38 <xranby> including myself
20150928 10:08:55 <xranby> this was why i started to look elsewhere how to do it right
20150928 10:09:34 <xranby> i recall every project jumped on the first arm9 chips with the armv5 instructionset only becaus eit had this jazelle bytecode
20150928 10:09:43 <xranby> and then realizing that noone could use jazelle
20150928 10:09:51 <xranby> since it was loced down by arm ans sun
20150928 10:10:32 <xranby> anly usable on mobile systems running sun's mobile jvm
20150928 10:11:02 <xranby> i still have my nokia N9
20150928 10:11:20 <xranby> wish i had a N900
20150928 10:11:23 <xranby> with keyboard
20150928 10:11:57 <xranby> sad seeing microsoft ruin such a good foundation
20150928 10:12:15 <guillaum1> me too. And my OpenMoko GTA01 :-)
20150928 10:14:40 <xranby> the openmoko got quite limped by their GPU manufacturer :/ on paper claiming that the GPU could update the screen at full framerates
20150928 10:14:50 <xranby> when in reality it stuttered
20150928 10:14:57 <guillaum1> yeah :-(
20150928 10:15:13 <xranby> and the whole non free gpu driver stack
20150928 10:15:36 <xranby> ... similar thing with the openrd marvell platform
20150928 10:15:41 <xranby> and plug computers
20150928 10:15:45 <xranby> using teh Z11 GPU
20150928 10:16:02 <xranby> XGI Volari Z11
20150928 10:16:16 <xranby> no free gpu drivers
20150928 10:16:22 <xranby> ony a precompiled blob
20150928 10:19:17 <guillaum1> xranby: As we can use OpenCL on FPGA (Altera, Xilinx) now, it should not be so hard to write a fixed pipeline.
20150928 10:22:25 <guillaum1> I mean use OpenCL to write a minimalistic OpenGL fixed pipeline
20150928 10:28:57 <xranby> great
20150928 10:29:22 <xranby> such apipeline would be usable on devices supportin vulkan as well
20150928 13:09:00 <monsieur_max> guys, launched my game for the first time on mac os x, everything worked perfectly well. Congratulations and thanks.
20150928 13:14:14 <xranby> \o/
20150928 13:14:47 <xranby> meanwhile i am having fun with quirkbots http://labb.zafena.se/quirkbot/video20150928_150724469.mp4
20150928 13:15:23 <eclesia> xranby: stop stealing your daughter's toy ! bad daddy
20150928 13:15:43 <xranby> hehe
20150928 13:15:49 <monsieur_max> xranby: just a few more tweaks and the robots will rise !
20150928 13:16:17 <xranby> the robot has an advantage.. when it evolve it may electricute my when i touch it
20150928 13:16:25 <xranby> me
20150928 13:16:47 <xranby> guard all capacitor depots!
20150928 13:16:58 <monsieur_max> haha :)
20150928 13:46:24 <zubzub> you know what would be nice
20150928 13:46:39 <zubzub> gluegen being activated/inntial config thorugh a compile time annotation
20150928 13:47:01 <zubzub> on say, a package-info.java class
20150928 13:47:21 <zubzub> that way javac would pick it up automatically
20150928 13:47:26 <zubzub> and it would be build-tool independent
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20150928 16:52:54 <guillaum1> xranby: one more info about XMLVM: it works at bytecode level. So it supports more Java features (and even other languages for the JVM) than transpilers at source level. The main drawback is that generated C code is not easily readable.
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20150929 00:29:43 <sgothel> https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=q13yzl6k6w0 <- Putin @ UNGA 2015 (shitty interpreter though)
20150929 00:33:08 <sgothel> http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts .. soon. In short, no compromise, calling the shots. oh well, we will see :-/
20150929 00:33:48 <sgothel> so where is the POTUS speech? he probably didn't say anything with many words? :)
20150929 00:34:54 <sgothel> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71jaAY3fxZ0 .. there we go, Obama @ UNGA 2015
20150929 00:42:35 <sgothel> accuses others of bombing children, while he executes them - proven. disgusting
20150929 00:43:38 <sgothel> at least .. he should be honest. yeah right :)
20150929 00:44:53 <sgothel> almost sounds like the speech .. threatening for WW3 .. w/ his 'we have the most powerful military power in the world', just to make sure .. the 'partners' know where their place is. yikes
20150929 00:45:20 <sgothel> (around 10 minutes)
20150929 01:00:29 <sgothel> he even dares to mention Libya .. shoulda woulda coulda .. it hurts
20150929 01:00:45 <sgothel> ~24min
20150929 01:01:21 <sgothel> cool .. 10th of thousands of new troups for the UN, welcome your new overlords
20150929 01:01:41 <sgothel> order ..
20150929 01:01:50 <sgothel> double speak: peace
20150929 01:03:34 <sgothel> another 10th of thousands .. he addresses Assad, accusing him to have slaughtered his own people by that number .. and then his creation ISIS. fascinating
20150929 01:03:54 <sgothel> lets remember how it started .. autch
20150929 01:04:32 <sgothel> guess he won't mention his support of terrorists to Syria (w/ Sauds, Turkey and Israel)
20150929 01:05:06 <sgothel> so much bullshit .. and out :-/
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20150929 05:05:14 -jogamp- Continue @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20150929050514.html