#jogamp @ irc.freenode.net - 20141016 05:06:23 (UTC)

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20141016 05:06:23 -jogamp- This channel is logged @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20141016050623.html
20141016 06:34:54 * eclesia (~husky@anon) has joined #jogamp
20141016 06:34:59 <eclesia> good morning
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20141016 07:40:29 <zubzub> @forum: if you want to migrate, isnt it better to put the old forum in read-only mode so people can do searches
20141016 07:40:33 <zubzub> and just start with a clean slate
20141016 07:40:41 <zubzub> no migration pains
20141016 07:41:20 <zubzub> and if people want to continue a thread in the new forum, just start a thread with a link to the old post
20141016 07:41:51 <zubzub> after 1 or 2 years the old forum info will be pretty obsolete and you can move it offline
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20141016 08:56:55 <sgothel> Hi Zuzub, good extension to the protocol Mark described
20141016 08:57:16 <sgothel> @Zuzub/Mark/All: Maybe it is time for a bug entry .. and continue from there ?
20141016 08:58:30 <sgothel> I also would sleep better if Mark takes this job over .. as he already has required access to server
20141016 08:58:47 <sgothel> yup - good morning everybody :)
20141016 08:58:52 <zubzub> :)
20141016 08:59:17 <zubzub> does/will jogle have egl bindings?
20141016 08:59:24 <sgothel> it already has
20141016 08:59:33 <zubzub> I mean the egl api
20141016 08:59:37 <sgothel> non public API via jogamp
20141016 08:59:44 <sgothel> jaja
20141016 08:59:52 <zubzub> https://www.khronos.org/files/egl-1-4-quick-reference-card.pdf
20141016 08:59:55 <zubzub> ah cool
20141016 08:59:57 <zubzub> where do I find it?
20141016 09:00:02 <sgothel> EGL
20141016 09:00:05 <zubzub> hmm non pulbic
20141016 09:00:18 <sgothel> jogamp.opengl.egl.EGL
20141016 09:00:31 <sgothel> yes, all binding layers are non public ..
20141016 09:00:42 <sgothel> but .. well, you still can use it
20141016 09:00:52 <sgothel> just don't want to guarantee API stability yet
20141016 09:02:06 <zubzub> does it have javadoc?
20141016 09:02:21 <sgothel> these days I cont. aligning the EGL layer w/ X11 GLX (EGLDrawableFactory, EGLContext) in regards to EGL_KHR_create_context etc
20141016 09:02:31 <sgothel> not produced :(
20141016 09:02:43 <sgothel> but if you use an IDE .. and attach sources .. you have it
20141016 09:02:59 <sgothel> maybe you want to make some public ?
20141016 09:03:20 <sgothel> bug report .. and we see whether others like the idea - I am not completely against it
20141016 09:03:31 <sgothel> will bump EGL to 1.5 while dealing w/ it
20141016 09:03:56 <sgothel> plus adding the wayland extension ofc
20141016 09:04:36 <sgothel> seems like only Mesa/EGL is really capable of doing things like surface-less context, and creating OpenGL >= 3.1 context
20141016 09:05:20 <sgothel> hence I need to keep some static probing as it currently is for ES1 and ES2-3
20141016 09:05:37 <zubzub> well it would be very handy to make wayland java bindings work with egl
20141016 09:05:49 <zubzub> as it would eliminate the need to write native code
20141016 09:06:09 <zubzub> in newt you could then simply implement everything on the java side
20141016 09:06:20 <zubzub> given that you use my wayland-java-bindings
20141016 09:06:44 <sgothel> I have earmarked this task (research) .. and if viable, sure
20141016 09:07:13 <sgothel> but before that, our EGL stack must be cleaned up, i.e. all those ProxySurface stuff .. must be simplified a bit
20141016 09:07:29 <sgothel> each time I read it, I have to meditate about it :)
20141016 09:07:32 <zubzub> yeah it becomes quickly confusing when looking into it
20141016 09:08:01 <sgothel> its for delegating foreign window/surface handles <-> EGL .. etc
20141016 09:08:41 <sgothel> so I will make it a bit less flexible but easier to read
20141016 09:10:50 <sgothel> so please go ahead w/ bug report
20141016 09:15:31 <zubzub> so what should be in it? a nice EGL interface?
20141016 09:16:09 <sgothel> EGL as-is -> com.jogamp... ofc .. plus considering possible security issues due to public usage
20141016 09:16:20 <sgothel> plus EGLExt for extensions
20141016 09:16:33 <sgothel> which must be accessible via GLContext .. somehow
20141016 09:16:50 <zubzub> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/ <- ?
20141016 09:17:13 <sgothel> then deliberating whether GLX, WGL .. shall made public as well ..
20141016 09:17:18 <sgothel> sure
20141016 09:17:34 <sgothel> our persistence storage of thoughts and process
20141016 09:18:11 <zubzub> not sure if wgl and glx should be made public, egl in essence should be platform agnostic(?)
20141016 09:21:21 <sgothel> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1095 Bug 1095 - Establish self hosted forum/mailinglist on jogamp.org
20141016 09:21:36 <sgothel> ^^ please add yourself here as well, I took the liberty quoting you
20141016 09:21:57 <sgothel> !EGL -> !public: yes, only EGL is agnostic
20141016 09:22:20 <sgothel> as I said .. just considering it .. but I guess EGL will be future proof
20141016 09:25:08 <zubzub> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1096
20141016 09:28:10 <zubzub> looks like some effort was put into running javafx on jogl (with egl) as well
20141016 09:28:59 <zubzub> https://jogamp.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=607
20141016 09:29:12 <zubzub> would be cool to have javafx running on wayland this way
20141016 09:29:44 <sgothel> I dunno .. but JOGL does surely not forbid sharing FBOs or other buffers w/ javafx :)
20141016 09:30:25 <sgothel> (compatible none-top-performance solution like GLJPanel)
20141016 09:30:43 <sgothel> surely not my priority
20141016 10:14:23 <sgothel> http://jogamp.org/log/stats/jogamp.org.201410.html <- our bugzilla is #1 page :)
20141016 10:14:46 <sgothel> http://jogamp.org/log/stats/jogamp.org.201410.urldetail.html
20141016 10:16:40 <sgothel> http://jogamp.org/log/stats/jogamp.org.201410.allextra1.html :)
20141016 10:32:57 * doev (~doev@anon) Quit (Quit: Verlassend)
20141016 10:53:30 <zubzub> see, everybody thinks javafx should be able to use jogl ;)
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20141016 12:26:53 <eclesia> zubzub: javafx frame api is a complete mess
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20141016 12:31:53 <zubzub> eclesia: everything slightly lower level javafx is a comple mess
20141016 12:33:26 <zubzub> in fact you don't even have to digg deep to see the mess
20141016 13:02:14 <monsieur_max> haha :)
20141016 13:03:23 <zubzub> they try to be smart and flexible and fail to do it because they don't use a dependency injection framework
20141016 13:03:52 <zubzub> resulting in a ton of static class references being passed around with 'new instance()'
20141016 13:04:17 <zubzub> the startup alone of a javafx applicatoin requires I believe 3(!) threads
20141016 13:07:35 <eclesia> personal opinion : dependency injection == evil pattern
20141016 13:08:50 <monsieur_max> personal opinion shared
20141016 13:17:11 <zubzub> dep injection is cool
20141016 13:17:16 <zubzub> given you use a proper framework
20141016 13:17:19 <zubzub> like dagger
20141016 13:17:24 <zubzub> dont use spring
20141016 13:17:26 <zubzub> (dear lord!)
20141016 13:17:45 <zubzub> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK_XtfXPkqw
20141016 13:17:48 <zubzub> watch that ;)
20141016 13:18:15 <zubzub> http://square.github.io/dagger/
20141016 13:18:45 <zubzub> (personal opinion shared) ;)
20141016 13:21:29 <eclesia> @Inject <-- bad, you will never see me use such annotations on personal projects
20141016 13:22:35 <zubzub> why?
20141016 13:22:50 <eclesia> that's ugly, 'Magic' code
20141016 13:23:57 <zubzub> oh you're one of those people ;)
20141016 13:23:58 <zubzub> yeah
20141016 13:23:59 <zubzub> c is nice
20141016 13:24:20 <eclesia> I don't like C :D
20141016 13:24:27 <zubzub> no magic ;)
20141016 13:24:39 <eclesia> well I prefer C over C++
20141016 13:24:40 <zubzub> the @inject is used to do compile time factory generation
20141016 13:24:46 <zubzub> you get the source code for free
20141016 13:24:52 <zubzub> of the factory
20141016 13:25:00 <zubzub> in case you want to know what the magic is doing
20141016 13:26:59 <zubzub> no bytecode generation, no runtime reflection
20141016 13:30:06 <monsieur_max> zubzub: thanks for sharing :)
20141016 13:39:03 <zubzub> np
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20141016 14:03:44 <gouessej> Hi
20141016 14:04:02 <zubzub> aloha
20141016 14:04:29 <zubzub> gouessej: you worked on javafx with jogl?
20141016 14:04:54 <gouessej> I don't think OpenJFX fails to be smart because of the lack of dependency injection, there are other means to avoid abusing static methods
20141016 14:05:18 <gouessej> I'm not a big fan of JavaFX/OpenJFX
20141016 14:05:41 <gouessej> but maybe it will get much attention when it gets an equivalent of JAWT
20141016 14:06:12 <gouessej> a clean and stable public API to access to its internal subcomponents
20141016 14:06:13 <zubzub> The Japanese Akita Welfare Trust?
20141016 14:06:40 <gouessej> As long as we have to rely on private unofficial APIs subject to changes, it's not worth it
20141016 14:08:00 <gouessej> Look at the native code of nativewindow to understand what I mean
20141016 14:08:17 <gouessej> You'll see "jawt_md.h"
20141016 14:11:23 <gouessej> I used Guice with Ardor3D several years ago
20141016 14:11:53 <gouessej> Most of Ardor3D users tried to stay far from it
20141016 14:12:25 <gouessej> Maybe there are benefits in using dependency injection but I find the code relying on it sometimes harder to read
20141016 14:15:10 <zubzub> when used properly it eases code readability and reausability
20141016 14:15:19 <zubzub> given that you:
20141016 14:15:33 <zubzub> try to make classes as stateless as possible (final fields)
20141016 14:15:52 <zubzub> only use contructors to assign/initiate fields
20141016 14:16:28 <zubzub> and if you need special logic to initiate an object, use a factory
20141016 14:17:17 <zubzub> *instantiate
20141016 14:18:29 <zubzub> and make sure you cleanly seperate business logic into nicely seperated classes
20141016 14:19:26 <zubzub> If you manage to do that (and I admit, that's not easy), your code will be a pleasure to work with
20141016 14:27:53 <zubzub> oh yeah
20141016 14:28:06 <zubzub> dagger generates a nice graph of the relationships between your classes
20141016 14:30:05 <gouessej> I prefer following more simple patterns
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20141016 14:36:30 <zubzub> make everything static! :p
20141016 14:37:59 <gouessej> No, this isn't what I do in JogAmp's Ardor3D Continuation but I'll have to fix some questionable design choices
20141016 14:38:30 <gouessej> https://github.com/gouessej/Ardor3D/issues/8
20141016 14:38:40 <gouessej> https://github.com/gouessej/Ardor3D/issues/7
20141016 14:43:21 <zubzub> don't use utility classes, use a singleton
20141016 14:46:18 <zubzub> that should help in providing custom implementation
20141016 14:46:25 <zubzub> define an interface for each of those classes
20141016 14:46:53 <zubzub> and wherever you instantiate your singleton you provide a way to specify in implementation
20141016 14:47:28 <zubzub> be it through the fqn from a settings file or a runtime class object that imlements the required interface or ...
20141016 14:48:34 <zubzub> or you can use SPI provided in java
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20141016 14:49:52 <zubzub> from my experience people usually have utility classes because they have a need to share logic between unrelated code parts
20141016 14:50:30 <monsieur_max> SPI is such an underused feature
20141016 14:50:48 <zubzub> and because they don't use DI, it's a pita to have that specific object shared between unrelated classes
20141016 14:50:52 <zubzub> so they revert to static methods
20141016 14:51:22 <zubzub> another reason why I <3 DI ;)
20141016 14:53:14 <zubzub> admitted if spring was the only DI framework I knew, I'd be running for the hills as well
20141016 14:54:34 <zubzub> also
20141016 14:54:36 <zubzub> https://github.com/google/auto
20141016 14:54:37 <zubzub> ;)
20141016 14:55:18 <zubzub> just like dagger it's a compile time dependency (code generator) so it doesn't bloat your runtime
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20141017 05:06:23 -jogamp- Continue @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20141017050623.html