#jogamp @ irc.freenode.net - 20141107 05:06:27 (UTC)


20141107 05:06:27 -jogamp- Previous @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20141106050626.html
20141107 05:06:27 -jogamp- This channel is logged @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20141107050627.html
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20141107 07:40:25 <eclesia> good morning living creatures
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20141107 10:53:39 <xranby> good morning soft silicon dancers!
20141107 10:54:18 <monsieur_max> or mighty bug creators !
20141107 10:54:37 <xranby> silicon chip electric boogey
20141107 10:55:01 <monsieur_max> xranby: given the way i dance, it might not be a good idea to use this skill to code ... ;)
20141107 10:56:44 <xranby> monsieur_max: its a creative jigg to code, its all go in cycles
20141107 10:58:30 <xranby> monsieur_max: it is possible to dance jigg solo :)
20141107 10:59:01 <monsieur_max> :)
20141107 10:59:22 <monsieur_max> in a dark room with no windows and no one to see
20141107 11:00:33 * doev (~doev@anon) Quit (Quit: Verlassend)
20141107 11:01:54 <xranby> monsieur_max: instructions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHjvzo5akH8
20141107 11:07:33 <monsieur_max> I'd break my ankle in less than 10 secs
20141107 11:27:19 <xranby> FOSDEM 2015
20141107 11:27:27 <xranby> https://lists.fosdem.org/pipermail/fosdem/2014-October/002050.html [FOSDEM] FreeJava DevRoom - Call for Paper 2015
20141107 11:31:22 <xranby> https://lists.fosdem.org/pipermail/fosdem/2014-October/002036.html [FOSDEM] Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom at FOSDEM 2015: CALL FOR PARTICIPATION
20141107 11:33:58 <xranby> freejava devroom This year's theme is "20 years of excellence". In particular we are looking for talks that cover (but those are just ideas, really, surprise us!): https://wiki.debian.org/Java/DevJam/2015/Fosdem/CallForParticipation
20141107 12:28:55 <eclesia> xranby: I don't like fosdem ... the never talked about my project :p
20141107 12:33:14 <zubzub> I can demonstrate a java wayland compositor that uses jogl to do it's compositing
20141107 12:33:27 <zubzub> but I don't really see that as something worth of demonstrating
20141107 12:34:05 <zubzub> 'look ma, I wrote some bindings!' etc.
20141107 12:39:38 * zzuegg (~zzuegg@anon) Quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
20141107 12:48:24 <xranby> eclesia: have you been to fosdem? i find it to be one of the better conferences out there
20141107 12:48:55 <eclesia> xranby: just kinding, never been to any java conference of any kind :D
20141107 12:51:42 <xranby> zubzub: i belive that java programmers needs to be educated how to archive proper hardware acceleration, most java programmers have the mindset that things can only get better by improving the jvm
20141107 12:52:21 <xranby> while jogamp have been to fosdem two years in a row pitching that you have to delegate tasks from the jvm to dedicated hardware
20141107 12:52:55 <zubzub> the common mantra in that case is
20141107 12:52:58 <zubzub> "use jni"
20141107 12:53:04 <zubzub> but I don't want to write jni :(
20141107 12:53:44 <xranby> we usually pitch that you can use jogamp that provide an abstraction layer
20141107 12:53:53 <xranby> so that you can access your dedicated hardware
20141107 12:54:09 <xranby> without having to know the operating system specifics
20141107 12:54:53 <xranby> by leveraging standardised API's
20141107 12:56:09 <zubzub> yup
20141107 12:57:05 <xranby> even if you use jni, you need to handle all the quirks of device driver initialization and theardown
20141107 12:57:28 <xranby> jogamp is verry good at it
20141107 12:57:42 <zubzub> you don't have to convince me ;)
20141107 12:58:17 <zubzub> thing is that most java programmers are simply not aware how to properly work with hardware
20141107 12:58:51 <zubzub> I've seen java programmers create a memory mapped file
20141107 12:58:52 <zubzub> for speed
20141107 12:59:10 <zubzub> because they need to persist writes immediately
20141107 12:59:19 <xranby> fosdem is great in this regard
20141107 12:59:23 <zubzub> and the writes never exceed 4 bytes or so
20141107 13:00:07 <xranby> because here the team leaders of many organisations meet and educate each other how it should be done
20141107 13:01:02 <xranby> the freejava devroom and the legal devroom share a lot of people because its the same people who liberated java and jogl inside sun that now runs these two rooms
20141107 13:05:12 <zubzub> oh nice
20141107 13:05:18 <zubzub> good job saving it from sun
20141107 13:05:24 <zubzub> now save and fix javafx :p
20141107 13:05:54 <zubzub> because holy sh*t it's internals are bad
20141107 13:06:50 <xranby> zubzub: the idea with graph inside jogamp jogl is to implement it the way the original "fx" vision
20141107 13:07:09 <xranby> that is, hardware accelerated UI grom the ground up
20141107 13:07:27 <xranby> from the ground up
20141107 13:07:54 <xranby> javafx 1.x used jogl internally and worked on lot of mobile devices
20141107 13:08:43 <xranby> javafx 2.x is handwritten c++ and only work on some places
20141107 13:08:52 <zubzub> yeah I also liked the graph language of jfx 1
20141107 13:09:00 <zubzub> ecmascript based
20141107 13:09:01 <zubzub> like qt
20141107 13:09:09 <zubzub> now it's xml :'(
20141107 13:09:33 <zubzub> is there a fork of jfx 1 :p
20141107 13:09:34 <zubzub> ?
20141107 13:09:53 <xranby> no. jfx 1 never got opensources
20141107 13:09:56 <xranby> opensourced
20141107 13:10:00 <zubzub> ah maan
20141107 13:10:07 <zubzub> :(
20141107 13:10:15 <xranby> the first openjfx release was 2 after they removed jogl
20141107 13:10:25 <zubzub> is jogl lgpl or gpl?
20141107 13:10:32 <zubzub> apache?
20141107 13:10:32 <xranby> jogl is bsd
20141107 13:10:54 <zubzub> ok so you can't force them to OS it :p
20141107 13:11:09 <xranby> http://jogamp.org/git/?p=jogl.git;a=blob;f=LICENSE.txt
20141107 13:12:34 <xranby> zubzub: oracle collect copyright assignment, thats why they can take contributions and release them under a different license
20141107 13:12:42 <xranby> its the copyright holder that decide what license to use
20141107 13:13:19 <xranby> zubzub: if you want to contribute to openjfx you have to grant oracle shared copyright or else they will not look or merge your work
20141107 13:13:31 <zubzub> ic
20141107 13:13:51 <xranby> zubzub: the icedtea project started as a way to contribute to openjdk without having to sign the copyright assignment agreement
20141107 13:14:30 <xranby> zubzub: thats why there exist improvements to openjdk inside icedtea like the webbrowser plugin, a thumb2 jit for arm, pulseaudio support
20141107 13:14:40 <xranby> that you do not get if you compile openjdk sources directly
20141107 13:15:14 <xranby> because the authors of the icedtea-web, icedtea-sound and thumb2 arm jit did not want to share the copyright with oracle
20141107 13:15:31 <zubzub> ic
20141107 13:22:04 <xranby> zubzub: can you make screenshots of your wayland jogl compositor?
20141107 13:22:16 <zubzub> not here, I'm at work
20141107 13:22:22 <zubzub> but sure I can, np
20141107 13:22:39 <zubzub> it's actually looks pretty simple/silly as it's mostly a poc
20141107 13:22:53 <zubzub> just a black window (the jogl window)
20141107 13:23:03 <zubzub> with inside it the standard wayland simple shm (test) client
20141107 13:23:57 <zubzub> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgZqbpIPcoE
20141107 13:24:06 <zubzub> that's another dude that wrote java bindings
20141107 13:24:12 <zubzub> but they don't work on java 8
20141107 13:24:18 <zubzub> and the code is pretty crude
20141107 13:24:41 <zubzub> (his jni doesn't play nice with java8)
20141107 13:25:05 <zubzub> the youtube clip only demonstrates the the simple SHM client
20141107 13:25:11 <zubzub> the compositor is weston
20141107 13:28:19 <xranby> nice to have an alternative to weston ;)
20141107 13:29:42 <xranby> zubzub: so if i understand correctly, by using your work wayland apps work all places where jogl is supported?
20141107 13:31:39 <zubzub> pretty much yes
20141107 13:31:46 <xranby> that would make a nice slide
20141107 13:32:43 <zubzub> you could use my compositor as a stand alone jogl app and embed wayland apps if you like
20141107 13:36:18 <xranby> thus by using your jogl compositor +x you get a more responsive feeling compared to using weston + x ?
20141107 13:36:30 <zubzub> no
20141107 13:36:35 <xranby> aww :/
20141107 13:36:50 <zubzub> my compositor does exactly the same as weston
20141107 13:37:00 <zubzub> well weston is far more complete ofcourse
20141107 13:37:15 <xranby> why do webstion on top of X feel sluggish by the way?
20141107 13:37:36 <xranby> on my machine firing up weston on top of X its like running on jelly
20141107 13:37:37 <zubzub> because weston has to send it's output to X before it is shown on screen
20141107 13:38:01 <zubzub> it might be that it's using software rendering on your setup
20141107 13:38:21 <xranby> aha! so on my setup your work would be better ? :)
20141107 13:38:39 <xranby> i have to try your work
20141107 13:38:46 <zubzub> well yeah there's currently only one rendering back-end and that's jogl (gles2)
20141107 13:38:53 <xranby> awesome
20141107 13:38:58 <xranby> all my devices support gles2
20141107 13:39:01 <zubzub> but you can force weston to use HW accel as well
20141107 13:39:15 <zubzub> and then it should be smooth as butter
20141107 13:39:39 <zubzub> https://github.com/Zubnix/trinityshell/tree/0.1.0-SNAPSHOT
20141107 13:39:50 <zubzub> don't read the README it's outdated :p
20141107 13:40:04 <xranby> well i will try mvn install
20141107 13:40:07 <xranby> and see what happens
20141107 13:40:24 <zubzub> failure
20141107 13:40:26 <zubzub> missing deps
20141107 13:40:27 <zubzub> :)
20141107 13:40:33 <zubzub> you will also need:
20141107 13:40:36 <zubzub> https://github.com/Zubnix/xcb4j
20141107 13:40:44 <zubzub> https://github.com/Zubnix/pixman4j
20141107 13:41:02 <zubzub> https://github.com/Zubnix/wayland-java-bindings
20141107 13:41:22 <zubzub> https://github.com/jroyalty/jglm
20141107 13:42:40 <zubzub> if everything works' you should see a nice black window :p
20141107 13:42:45 <xranby> cool
20141107 13:43:35 <zubzub> I use the example simple shm app in the wayland-java-bindings to show the psychedelic example
20141107 13:45:13 <zubzub> other wayland clients probably wont work as they expect more protocol to be implemented
20141107 13:48:33 <zubzub> there's also an X window manager in there
20141107 13:48:54 <zubzub> but the module is currently disabled (for no specific reason besides quicker wayland testing)
20141107 13:49:49 <zubzub> the X window manager doesn't do much, except for intercepting X clients and manually passing it to the X server (as do all X window managers)
20141107 13:50:26 <zubzub> (ie you can use it to hook into client move resize requests and modify/overrule them)
20141107 13:50:48 <zubzub> the plan is to support XWayland in the future
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20141107 17:55:05 <Eclesia> good evening
20141107 17:56:17 <Eclesia> question : what is glRenderbufferStorage used for ? seems to be related with fbo but I still can't really understand it's purpose
20141107 17:57:24 <rmk0> it's how you "allocate" a renderbuffer
20141107 17:57:48 <rmk0> same as with a texture, you first create a new texture identifier, and then you associate storage with it (by using glTexImage2D and the like)
20141107 18:00:29 <Eclesia> rmk0: hi, so what is exactly is a render buffer compared to FBO and TBO ?
20141107 18:00:43 <rmk0> it's just a rendering target that you can't sample from
20141107 18:01:00 <rmk0> if you use an FBO and attach a texture to it, you can obviously sample from that texture later
20141107 18:01:03 <rmk0> renderbuffers are strictly one-way
20141107 18:01:25 <rmk0> it's supposed to let the hardware do things more efficiently on some implementations
20141107 18:01:52 <rmk0> i don't really use them
20141107 18:02:07 <rmk0> tend to always want to sample from things i've rendered...
20141107 18:05:18 <Eclesia> rmk0: so I can call it after any texture creation to indicate opengl 'Hey, I will never read from it, do your best' ? that's it ?
20141107 18:07:56 <rmk0> no, it's only for renderbuffers
20141107 18:08:18 <rmk0> glGenRenderbuffers(...);
20141107 18:08:29 <rmk0> glBindRenderbuffer(...);
20141107 18:08:34 <rmk0> glRenderbufferStorage(...);
20141107 18:08:37 <rmk0> glBindRenderbuffer(0);
20141107 18:08:38 <rmk0> etc
20141107 18:08:49 <rmk0> then attach the renderbuffer to an FBO
20141107 18:09:30 <Eclesia> ha ok, so it's another data type, VBO,FBO,TBO,IBO,UBO ...
20141107 18:09:40 <rmk0> not quite
20141107 18:09:44 <Eclesia> rahhh
20141107 18:09:52 <rmk0> i mean... textures aren't on that list
20141107 18:10:10 <Eclesia> they are in the '...'
20141107 18:10:14 <rmk0> ok!
20141107 18:10:17 <Eclesia> texture 1d 2d md cube
20141107 18:10:22 <Eclesia> 2dms*
20141107 18:10:46 <rmk0> not really sure why renderbuffers exist
20141107 18:10:57 <rmk0> i mean... "they could be faster" doesn't really justify it
20141107 18:11:02 <Eclesia> that was my next question :D what is it used for ?
20141107 18:11:30 <rmk0> you can "read" from them with glBlitFramebuffer
20141107 18:11:36 <rmk0> you just can't pass them to a shader as a texture
20141107 18:12:13 <rmk0> so... presumably if you knew you were never going to pass them to a shader, you could get some imaginary performance increase by using them
20141107 18:13:59 <Eclesia> hm ...
20141107 18:14:26 <Eclesia> It can be used anywhere an fbo could go ?
20141107 18:14:55 <rmk0> it's an attachment to an FBO
20141107 18:15:17 <Eclesia> so it's just one texture
20141107 18:15:17 <rmk0> you know how you create an FBO, and then attach textures to its color and depth/stencil attachment points
20141107 18:15:39 <rmk0> it's a texture you can't use as a texture, yes, if that's an easier way to think about it
20141107 18:20:38 <rmk0> it seems as though they were required in the olden days to get a depth buffer on a user-created FBO
20141107 18:20:40 <Eclesia> I see a way to use it. for my 2D painter. I use a FBO with a color and depth_stencil attachements. since those textures are never used in shader I could replace them by render buffer
20141107 18:21:00 <rmk0> you could, yeah
20141107 18:22:35 * Eclesia is still not sure it's a good idea, it looks like something obsolete
20141107 18:22:50 <rmk0> like i said, i've never bothered with them
20141107 18:23:13 <rmk0> i think it used to be that you couldn't have depth-only textures, or packed depth/stencil textures, or do multisampling whilst rendering to a texture
20141107 18:23:20 <rmk0> obviously none of that's true now
20141107 18:23:40 <rmk0> i use textures exclusively in the renderer
20141107 18:36:05 <Eclesia> ha, finally, starting to parse blender material infos :)
20141107 18:36:24 <rmk0> /o\
20141107 18:37:15 <Eclesia> don't worry, have something like 20 decoder more or less advanced
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20141107 21:02:30 <luska72> Hey, I have some basic texture displaying code that works fine on a mac laptop, but displays nothing on my mac desktop. Does anyone here know what things could cause this? I'm looking for 'buzzwords' to google search essentially :P
20141107 21:03:34 <Eclesia> using multisampling ? mask, blending ?
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20141107 21:04:28 <luska72> Nope, I'm using the only code that messes with textures is: t.setTexParameteri(gl, GL2.GL_TEXTURE_MIN_FILTER, GL2.GL_LINEAR); t.setTexParameteri(gl, GL2.GL_TEXTURE_MAG_FILTER, GL2.GL_LINEAR); t.setTexParameteri(gl, GL2.GL_TEXTURE_WRAP_S, GL2.GL_CLAMP_TO_EDGE); t.setTexParameteri(gl, GL2.GL_TEXTURE_WRAP_T, GL2.GL_CLAMP_TO_EDGE);
20141107 21:05:03 <luska72> and I'm displaying them in immediate mode (I'm trying to get them working before using VBOs) with: gl.glBegin(GL2.GL_QUADS); gl.glTexCoord2f(0.0f, 0.0f); gl.glVertex2f(0.0f, 0.0f); gl.glTexCoord2f(1.0f, 0.0f); gl.glVertex2f(0.0f + WIDTH, 0.0f); gl.glTexCoord2f(1.0f, 1.0f); gl.glVertex2f(0.0f + WIDTH, 0.0f + HEIGHT); gl.glTexCoord2f(0.0f, 1.0f); gl.glVertex2f(0.0f,0.0f + HEIGHT); gl.glEnd();
20141107 21:05:57 <Eclesia> I'm not familiar with GL1/GL2 sorry :/
20141107 21:06:12 <Eclesia> I started with GL4 and shaders
20141107 21:07:17 <luska72> Are those very different? I'm pretty new to opengl, and only started using GL2 because that's what the tutorials I followed did. Would you recommend re-writing the code for GL4 instead?
20141107 21:08:35 <Eclesia> well, GL4 is supported on graphic card since 2010.
20141107 21:08:53 <Eclesia> the choice is yours
20141107 21:10:20 <luska72> Thanks, Eclesia, I'll try using GL4. If I still can't get them to work still I may be back.
20141107 21:11:10 <Eclesia> good luck
20141107 21:13:34 <rmk0> luska72: there's a good chance you're being given a profile that doesn't support the opengl calls you're making
20141107 21:14:19 <rmk0> would use DebugGL to get useful errors
20141107 21:14:31 <rmk0> i assume you have a line of code somewhere that says:
20141107 21:14:43 <rmk0> GL2 g = drawable.getGL().getGL2();
20141107 21:14:46 <rmk0> try:
20141107 21:14:54 <rmk0> GL2 g = new DebugGL2(drawable.getGL().getGL2());
20141107 21:15:12 <rmk0> it'll raise an exception on the first opengl call that fails, which is what i suspect is happening here somewhere
20141107 21:18:30 <rmk0> i don't think you'll get a GL4 profile on OS X
20141107 21:19:13 <rmk0> oh, maybe you will
20141107 21:19:40 <rmk0> it's very hardware and OS version specific
20141107 21:20:12 <Eclesia> no gl4 on mac ?
20141107 21:20:51 <bruce-> hm
20141107 21:21:00 <bruce-> I have gl4 profiles on mac
20141107 21:21:15 <rmk0> it seems like quite a recent thing
20141107 21:21:23 <rmk0> 10.9ish at least, and only on some models
20141107 21:32:53 <Eclesia> found the texture reference in blender material :)
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20141107 21:56:26 <Eclesia> and here are the uv, yeah I found all part, time to rebuild the model ^^
20141107 21:59:27 <Eclesia> the format isn't that hard to decode after all
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20141107 22:41:22 <luska72> rmk0: I tried using DebugGL2 and no errors came up at all. I made a pastebin showing the INIT GL, GL_VENDOR, GL_RENDERER, and GL_VERSION for both tries on the desktop, as well as the laptop which does show the textures. They have different graphics cards, does that tell you anything perhaps? :)
20141107 22:42:03 <luska72> oops, forgot to link pastebin: http://pastebin.com/b0Di5ns1
20141107 22:42:26 * rmk0 eyes it
20141107 22:43:42 <rmk0> unfortunately not
20141107 22:45:10 <luska72> damn, ok. Unless there's anything else you think I should try I guess my next step will be using GL4 and hoping it works :P. Thanks for the help
20141107 22:48:01 <rmk0> the errorless empty screen is one of the worst aspects of opengl programming
20141107 22:48:04 <rmk0> expect a lot of them
20141107 22:51:41 <luska72> yeah it's a hard transition from a programming language that just does everything for me. at least i'm learning i guess
20141107 22:53:13 <rmk0> it's likely best not to bother with the fixed function pipeline
20141107 22:53:28 <rmk0> immediate mode and so on
20141107 22:53:42 <rmk0> it's a lot of state to learn and understand, which you straight away have to forget about
20141107 22:54:13 <rmk0> shaders simplify things, because you end up explicitly setting parameters you've declared (in shaders) rather than having to manage bits of enabled and disabled state in the api
20141107 22:56:22 <Eclesia> wouhou it works !
20141107 22:57:40 <Eclesia> http://unlicense.developpez.com/gallery/3D_format_blender_l.png
20141107 22:58:30 <rmk0> got to be less painful than scraping the mesh data with a python plugin...
20141107 22:58:43 <rmk0> and you won't have to rewrite it every six weeks
20141107 22:59:15 <Eclesia> the python thing or mine ?
20141107 22:59:29 <rmk0> the python thing
20141107 22:59:45 <rmk0> let me try that again
20141107 23:00:02 <rmk0> "doing that in java has got to be less painful than scraping the mesh data with a python plugin that you have to rewrite every six weeks"
20141107 23:01:53 <luska72> do you mind if I ask what I'm looking at? A bump-mapped flag texture or something? :P
20141107 23:01:56 <Eclesia> hehe. the good thing is : the way it's parsed, the blender file is a big tree, like an dom node. so whenever you need to extract some other infos, it's possible. unlike exported formats, obj, 3ds etc...
20141107 23:02:39 <Eclesia> luska72: you're looking at a DIRECT import of a blender model in my engine. not an export
20141107 23:03:07 <Eclesia> I don't think many engine have such decoder
20141107 23:04:05 <luska72> damn, so you figured out how to get all the .blend/.fbx (forgot file name) into a java engine? Idk if I can fully appreciate how hard that must have been.
20141107 23:04:23 <Eclesia> fbx is another format
20141107 23:04:35 <Eclesia> it's a .blend file here
20141107 23:05:12 <luska72> that's really awesome, and here I am trying to get a texture to show up xD
20141107 23:05:46 <Eclesia> luska72: I also have a lot of problems ... don't worry :D
20141107 23:07:03 <Eclesia> decoding is just what I'm the best at ^^
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20141108 05:06:27 -jogamp- Continue @ http://jogamp.org/log/irc/jogamp_20141108050627.html